Volume 25 Number 38
                       Produced: Sun Dec  8  8:15:11 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Eating in Kosher non-Frum Home (was Shidduchim)
         [David Neustadter]
Levite cities
         [Jonathan Katz]
More on Tropen
         [Martin N. Penn]
Pronounciation of Yis(s)a(s)char's name
         [Allan Lehmann]
Shiduchim (2)
         [Jacob Levenstein, Steve Albert]
Standards of Kashrut and Community Responsibility
Trop and General K Heksherim
         [Jay Rovner]
Trup  (esnachta)
         [Elozor Preil]
Yisaschar or Yisachar?
         [Sheldon Meth]


From: David Neustadter <david_neustadter@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 08:58:28 +0200
Subject: Eating in Kosher non-Frum Home (was Shidduchim)

Elanit Z. Rothschild wrote:

> In a message dated 96-12-01 22:18:16 EST, Shimon Lebowitz wrote: 

>> BUT... I draw the line at eating in her parents house. with all the
>> discomfort, no... pain, involved, I cannot see eating in the house
>> of someone who is openly not religious, not shomer shabbat, and
>> keeps kashrut 'sometimes'. while I greatly admire (Really!!) their
>> effort to keep a kosher home, either because they themselves want 
>> it, or in respect of the children's desire to keep kosher, I as a 
>> person coming from outside do not feel I can accept the 'hechsher' 
>> of such people.

> Making decisions like that based soley on the fact that a person is 
> not shomer shabbos, IMHO, is premature.  You must first come to know 
> the person, if possible, because I know that my parents are very 
> knowledgable about our religion and its halachot and would do 
> nothing to put their children in a "bedieved" situation.

To trust someones kashrut is not the same as to "trust them" in general.
In order to trust someone about an Issur (a forbidden act; such as
eating not kosher food), they must be "halachically trustworthy"
(according to the rules of 'one witness is beleived for an Issur').  For
this reason, no matter how trustworthy you 'feel' a person is, there is
certainly an issue to be raised in trusting the kashrut of someone who
openly is not shomer shabbat, no matter how careful they are about

I was faced with this very issue when a friend of mine became a ba'al
teshuva.  His parents decided, much to their credit, to make their house
kosher so that he would feel comfortable eating there.  Knowing that I
was going to be invited to eat there, I asked my rav whether or not I
could trust their kashrut.

I suggest that you ask your LOR if faced with this situation, but this
is what my rav told me:

A non-jew or non-religious jew who would ordinarily not be trusted for
kashrut, can be trusted if there is an external reason to beleive that
they would not lie.  This is why such people can be trusted as employees
in kosher restaurants, etc.. since they know that if they get caught
cheating on the kashrut they will get fired.  Rav Moshe has a teshuva, I
appologize that I can't provide the reference, in which he says that
this concept applies to non-religious children who keep a kosher home so
that their religious parents will eat there.  Since they know that if
they are caught, they will allienate their parents and their parents
will never eat in their house again, their kashrut can be trusted.  My
rav's comment was "boruch Hashem we now have many opportunities to apply
Rav Moshe's teshuva in the opposite situations of children bringing
their parents closer to Judaism."  Of course this assumes that you know
that the people involved are knowlegeable enough to keep kosher if they
want to, but if you really want to keep kosher, it's not that difficult
to learn how.


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 20:31:14 EST
Subject: Levite cities

While studying Bamidmar, the following question came up regarding the 48
cities given to the Levi'im (Bamidbar, chapter 35).  6 of these cities
were to be "cities of refuge". 3 of these cities were to be outside of
Israel, in the territory of the 2.5 tribes.  Did Levi'im actually live
in those cities outside of Israel? If not, why were the cities
considered theirs? If so, why should they be punished by living outside
of Israel? And, how did they serve in the Temple?

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive - Room 233F
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: Martin N. Penn <74542.346@...>
Date: 07 Dec 96 19:33:00 EST
Subject: More on Tropen

In a previous post, David Herskovic asked:

> What is the correct trop for the Kotoynti in this week's sedra.  Most
> Chumoshim have an azlo geireish and going by the humming of the
> congregation that is what most people expect.  However, I have found a
> few Chumoshim which have a Revi'i.  So which is the right one?

Right off, I'll admit I do not which is right.  I spoke with a
professional Baal Keriah who is very careful to enunciate each letter
and every trop according to the mesorah.  He, too, had only recently
seen the Revi'i in the Koren Chumash.  He has always read it with an
Azlo-Geireish, and this year was no different.  He offered that there
are probably different mesorahs; one with an Azlo-Geiriesh, and one with
a Revi'i.

IMHO, the Revi'i is more correct.  We all know that trop is supposed to
help with understanding the meaning of the words.  Well, take a look at
the pasuk we are focusing on.  Yaakov is pleading to Hashem to save him
from his brother when he says (B'Reishit, 32:11): "Katonti mical
ha'chasadim u'mical ha'emet asher asita et avdecha..."  This is
translated by Art Scroll as: "I have been diminished by all the
kindnesses and by all the truth that You have done for Your servant..."

A revi'i is cantillated by starting high and going down.  In other
words, diminishing.  An Azlo-Geirish has the reverse cantillation,
starting low and going up.  Pronouncing Katonti with a Revi'i
complements this interpretation much better than an Azlo-Geireish does.

Shavua Tov,
Martin Penn


From: Allan Lehmann <lehmann@...>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:49:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Yis(s)a(s)char's name

In Torah Shleyma, Vayetze, Bereshit 30:18, there is an extensive
footnote on the issue of how ysskhr is to be read. A number of varying
minhagim are cited.

Allan Lehmann   <lehmann@...>     Gainesville, FL


From: <levenstein@...> (Jacob Levenstein)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:32:01 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Shiduchim

Rav Aharon Rakeffet told his class in the Yeshivah University Kollel, 
Yerushalayim, the following story. One of Rav Yosef Dov Halevi 
Soloveitchik's (the Rav) students had gone out with many girls. This 
student of the Rav was finding the process difficult as he had not found 
his bashert after going out with many girls. He asked the Rav how he would 
know which girl to marry. The Rav told the student to look at Rambam, 
Hilchot Teshuvah, chapter 10, halachah 3 to see how he should feel about 
the girl he is to marry.

Jacob Levenstein
P.O. Box 4548, Jerusalem, 91044 Israel
Voice: +972-(0)2-5619006 - Cellular: +972-(0)50999466

From: <SAlbert@...> (Steve Albert)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:13:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Shiduchim

Two points, one specific, on general:

Regarding the person who wouldn't eat at the home of someone who wasn't
shomer shabbos: This question came up for me (though not while dating),
and the rav I asked indicated that although being shomer shabbos is a
sufficient condition to trust someone's kashrus, it's not a necessary
condition: if they're not shomer shabbos, you have to look further to
determine whether you can eat at their home or not, but you can't assume
that it's necessarily traif.

Regarding shiduchim in general: There's a free shiduch service for
Orthodox singles called Simcha Link; it's sponsored by the Chicago
Chesed Fund, and advised by Rav Shmuel Fuerst (a talmid of Rav Moshe
Feinstein, and dayan of the Agudah in Chicago).  It's open to all
Orthodox Jews, regardless of hashkafah: chassidish, yeshivish, centrist,
Bnei Akiva, etc.; anyone who is shomer mitzvos, regardless of derech, is
eligible.  They're working with people all over the U.S., and some in
other countries (Canada, Israel, etc.)  as well.  Anyone who would like
more information, either for themselves or to pass on to friends, is
welcome to e-mail me, and I'll send a detailed description and contact

Steve Albert (<SAlbert@...>)


From: Anonymous
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:51:33 -0500
Subject: Standards of Kashrut and Community Responsibility

In a message dated 96-12-06 01:21:46 EST, you write:

<< << BUT... I draw the line at eating in her parents house. with all the
  discomfort, no... pain, involved, I cannot see eating in the house of
  someone who is openly not religious, not shomer shabbat, and keeps
  kashrut 'sometimes'. while I greatly admire (Really!!) their effort to
  keep a kosher home, either because they themselves want it, or in
  respect of the children's desire to keep kosher, I as a person coming
  from outside do not feel I can accept the 'hechsher' of such people. >> >>

I've been on the receiving end of this and I cannot tell you how much
this hurts. My husband and I have always kept a scrupulously kosher
home, adhereing to the strictest standards, which included flying in
meat from out of state, because the local kosher butcher did meet our

Over the past year, we noticed that people were declining our
invitations for Shabbat and we finally were told that the person I
thought was my best friend was quietly telling people she and her
husband no longer ate in our home because they had "serious questions
about the level of kashrut" in our home.
 Of course, the quietness of this whole thing and the laws of loshon
hora offer me no opportunity to defend myself.

While "hechshure" and "kashrut" can broadly mean the overall observance
of a household, most people take it in the context of food. What this
woman meant was that my husband and I are not 100% shomer shabbat. I am
under treatment for cancer, and because of the effects of the treatment,
I can no longer make the 1.6 mile walk to the synagogue, so we
drive. That is our only deviation from the rules. And for this we are
being shunned in the community and subjected to a whisper campaign. (I
notice that a man in our synagogue, who cannot walk and rides one of
those motorized carts is NOT similarly sanctioned.) Our rabbi has been
no help in resolving this matter and we are rapidly being positioned
into leaving our synagogue in order to be considered "socially
acceptable."  Is there no measure of kindness in Judaism? No allowances
for physical incapacity? I do not want to spend the final months of my
life davening at home with no community contact.


From: <jarovner@...> (Jay Rovner)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 14:22:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Trop and General K Heksherim

1. on tropen (david herskovic)
	Any answer to the questions will be dependent upon the
responder's traditions, and will vary. I prefer a plain melody for all
mesharetim/mehaberim/conjunctive teamim, munah included; however, the
eastern european and german traditions generally have more elaborate
ones before other conjunctive teamim (darga, merkha, mahpakh) than
before disjunctive ones (even minor ones like zarka and revii).
	The most complete musical system that I am aware of has been
worked out by Shlomo Rosowsky (Biblical Cantillation) and Y.L. Neeman
(Tselile Ha-Mikra, I think). Both based themselves upon israeli baale
keriah of lithuanian extraction: they claim to be authentic to a certain
musical tradition. (tselile na-mikra, in two vols., treats all of the
tropes for scriptural books currently chanted according to ashkenazi
musical traditions).
	There is a more recent work (maybe someone else knows author and
title - it escapes me, sorry) that gives all of the tropes according to
Rosowsky's notations (but without theoretical discussion).

General K Heksherim

	I called the edwards' 800 no. to find out who supervises the "K"
yogurts. I was told that the regular ones are supervised by rabbi
leonard bronstein. It turns out that he is on the pathmark listing for
supervising theirs as well. question: what published guide is available
to critique these "k" heksherim.

thank you
jay rovner


From: Elozor Preil <rpry@...>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:10:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Trup  (esnachta)

Akiva Miller asked about longer pesukim with no esnachta.

I threw the question to my seventh graders at RPRY in Edison, NJ, and
they responded.  Avi Tiefenbrunn thought of a pasuk in his upcoming bar
mitzvah parsha (Sh'mini): Vayikra 11:1 is a pasuk of eight words with no
esnachta.  Allon Waltuch then topped him by discovering a pasuk in the
chumash we are studying this year.  Devarim 5:23 ("Ki mi kol basar asher
shama...") has 14 words and no esnachta.

Kol tuv,
Elozor Preil


From: Sheldon Meth <Sheldon_Meth@...>
Date: 6 Dec 1996 09:01:27 -0400
Subject: Yisaschar or Yisachar?

In v25n36, Barry Best writes:

<<I have heard two different customs regarding the pronounciation of
Yisachar's name the first time it appears (in VaYatzay): (i) it is
pronounced the same way as it always is -- Yisachar; and (ii) it is
pronounced as it is written -- Yisaschar.  I have read that the silent
sin is becuase Yisachar "gave" it to his son who he originally named Yov
(B'raishis 46:13), but whose name was changed to Yashuv (B'Midbar 26:24)
becuase Yov is the name of a particular idol.  In Vayatzay, Yov (Yasuv)
was not yet born and so perhaps, Yisacahr may have been called

I have no references, just Ma'asey Rav.

In the shtiebel in which I grew up, the Foltichaner Rav, ZYAvAK"Y, when
he reached the first occurrence of the name (he was the Shul's Ba'al
Koray), would read "Yisoschor Yisuchor" (i.e., both pronounciations).
In all subsequent occurences, he would read "Yisuchor."

A Freilichen Channukah


End of Volume 25 Issue 38