Volume 25 Number 47
                      Produced: Fri Dec 20  0:15:09 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Kashrus: Relying on Irrelgious Parents
         [Steve White]
Shidduchim (2)
         [Janice Gelb, Carl Sherer]
         [Chaim Shapiro]


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 09:39:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Kashrus: Relying on Irrelgious Parents

In #42,

> From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@...>
[most of post deleted]
>  It is obvious that this is not a blanket permission to eat with people
>  you trust. [See his discussion of not relying upon the testimony of an
>  irrelgious person who has a solid reputation for honesty Yoreh Deah II
>  #43 page 57.] Each situation needs to be evaulated by a competent Rav.
>  It is not appropriate or helpful to quote gedolim without first checking
>  what they actually said and the context.

Of course, in the absence of a published teshuva on the question of
parents, one cannot be certain one way or the other what Reb Moshe tz''l
(or anyone else) would pasken "routinely."

That having been said, I'd like to get back on a soapbox about why
situations must be taken to a competent Rav, rather than people
automatically using published responsa.  As we have discussed here on
other occasions (I think), there are any number of reasons why
*published* responsa will tend to strictness rather than leniency.
Perhaps the most fundamental reason is that *published* teshuvot are
likely to be used out of context; therefore someone publishing teshuvot
responsibly will not tend to publish lenient positions which are not
widely (or universally) applicable.  This does *not* mean that more
lenient positions are not available under specific circumstances.  This
is why one needs to discuss the matter with a competent posek.

When newspapers publish rulings of secular courts, l'havdil, such as the
US Supreme Court, they tend to discuss whether the ruling was on "wide"
grounds or "narrow" grounds.  Since p'sak halacha can also be "wide" or
"narrow," why don't we ever discuss that?

Steven White


From: <anonymous@...>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 00:45:22 GMT
Subject: Shadchonim

  I read with much interest Jeremy Burton's post of  Mon, 2 Dec 1996.

>How can someone who hasn't spoken to you for 20 minutes in the
>last five years "know" that this is the "right" person for you?

This point specifically is of great interest to me.  I suspect that in
certain circumstances, in the yeshiva world,  the shadchan (meaning
the rov who makes the shidduch) doesn't really know the proposed
chosson or kallah, but just sees two single people and says "could be
bashert- lets try!" Especially being in the yeshiva world for a long
time, where I have seen that yeshiva boys change alot- while a bochur
might be shtark and a big masmid, as soon as the Rosh Yeshiva leaves
he might turn into a chaya, or might have leftist hoshkofas that his
rosh yueshiva might know nothing about. Conversely, the boy who is
weaker, the rosh yeshiva will assume is hoshkofically less black.

I hope this is a chisoron only in the yeshivot I've been in and
around, and not in all yeshivot in general. This could be a big
problem, as marrige is forever, and if someone at 20 and 19 is very

Case in point example, which happened in a yeshiva I was in once upon
a time, Shepsel is proposed a shidduch with Bayla, after a long period
with the Bayla checking shepsel out, shepsel finally looses patience
and says, "forget it, she is marrying me, not my zeidies from
Europe-". In the end, the Rov who proposed the shidduch forces it,
they go out once- he leaves his secular music at home, and comes off
blacker than night, there is a second date- and after the second date
Shepsel tells the shadchan he doesnt want to go out again becuase she
wants him only to wear white shirts. The rov/shadchan says "tell her
what she wants to hear, and worry about it later."  and on the third
date, by accident, they pass blockbuster, and she mentions something-
one thing leads to another, turns out both of them are modern
orthodox- who go to movies, listen to secular music, etc. This rov had
no idea about the true nature of these two people, but BH both of them
found out before it was too late.

What irks me is (a) the attitute of the rov "tell her what she wants
to hear"- shepsel eventually went to talk to one of the gedolei
yisroel, shlita, about what this rov said, and the godol of course
said that that was the worst advice ever! (b) and this rov might have
been trying, but he didnt know the choson (he thought he did, but he
really didn't) and obviously he didnt know the kalla either. 

This is why I feel the way it is done in more modern communities is
much easier for the boy/girl.- where a friend proposes a shidduch. A
friend of the guy happens to have a sister/cousin. or a sister of a
guy might have a friend who has a brother. In this case- the friend
knows the true nature of the guy who he is making the shidduch for- 

This post is long enough- but regardless it is important to remember a
point that hasnt been stressed enough- that it is HASHEM WHO MAKES
SHIDDUCHIM- 40 days before the vlad is formed, that making is a
shidduch is as hard as kriyas yam suf- and obviously a shadchan cant
split the yam suf- obviously a shadchan/rov/bocur has no power to find
that special girl, without help of hashem!

On a side point, I read somewhere ( i think in a breslover book) that
saying oz yoshiyr with kavana is a sgula for finding ones shidduch.
anyone seen this???
Wisinging everyone all the best,
A yeshiva ben torah.


From: <janiceg@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:22:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Shidduchim

Some comments on recent posts on shidduchim:
> From: <crew-esq@...> (Chanie Wolicki)
>         In addition to the money problem, many people have unreasonable
> lists. Sure, I would like to marry a 31 year old doctor who is handsome,
> loaded, ba'al chesed, warm-hearted, etc. Reality dictates that not every
> guy I date is a doctor, or even a professional, most are older than I
> would like, "only" decent looking, making a living but not Rockefellers,
> etc. I have narrowed my list of must haves down to the important things
> - hashkafa, personality - and broadened the range of external qualities
> I can live with.
>         Many men (ranging from divorced men with several children to the
> 50 plus bachelors) have unrealistic requirements - they will not look at
> a girl larger than a size 8, they all want never-married girls in their
> 20's, etc.  Of course, many women also have lists - we all want rich
> guys, etc. We all have to seriously think about what is truly important
> in a relationship. As one rabbi said at a singles event recently, your
> date does not have to be the world's greatest conversationalist. You
> have to be able to address the real issues; you have the rest of your
> lives to learn to make small talk.
>         Instant solution: BE HONEST AND BE REALISTIC! What really
> matters?  How important is it, as Anonymous mentions, what color shirt
> her father wears on Sunday afternoons? Don't lie about your age - and
> don't get hung up on how old he is, either. Very few issues are really
> so important you should reject someone sight unseen. Go out. You might
> not like each other anyway, or you might be pleasantly surprised to find
> that the mate of your dreams has been waiting for you to decide that
> petty things aren't that important after all.

At first glance, this sounds like a praiseworthy attitude. However, the
second time I read it, I became a bit more disturbed. Overall, it seems
to convey the attitude that the most important thing is to make *some*
match, even if it's not the best possible. I don't entirely agree with

What Chanie dismisses as "petty things" may not be so petty after all.
If you meet with a person and can't even have a decent conversation with
him, how could you envision spending the rest of your life with him? If
you hear a shadcan's description of a person that doesn't sound very
compatible but you "go out anyway" because you've decided you shouldn't
"reject someone sight unseen," you end up being the second party in the
disastrous encounters Anonymous mentioned: where the other person is
clearly not compatible. Why waste everyone's time?

I completely agree that petty things like shirt color shouldn't even be
in the equation. But I'm not sure that there are only "very few issues"
that are really important either.

> From: <Ezr0th@...> (Elanit Z. Rothschild)
> Now, my sister has become of "marriagable" age and we all have joined in
> on the "hunt" for a shidduch for her.  Many thoughts have crossed my
> mind about this: will he care that my sister is a baalat teshuvah?  Will
> he care that my mother does not cover her hair?  Will he still be
> willing to eat by my parents even though they eat non kosher OUTSIDE of
> the home?  Will he be willing to accept my family the way they are and
> not ask for anything else until they are ready for it?  I believe these
> are real questions.  I know the kind of man my sister is looking for.
> She wants someone more to the right than YU, wears a black hat, makes
> time for learning, basically a good Torah Jew- does the things that you
> mentioned in your post.
> Is it hard to find a man like that but with the values that I mentioned
> before that?  I don't know.  I hope not.  I hope that a ben-Torah will
> be willing to accept a bat-Torah no matter what her backround is. 

I would hope so too. But I think you've thrown one monkey-wrench into
the works. It's one thing to hope that a ben-Torah would overlook a
girl's background if otherwise they are a good match. However, it's
another thing (and I'm speaking as a ba'alat teshuvah) to ask him to
possibly compromise on what and where he will eat. Surely if he acts
respectfully toward your parents and they respect his Orthodox beliefs,
they would not be insulted if he tactfully made it understood that he
could not eat by them.

-- Janice
Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this      
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address. 

From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 20:43:15 +0000
Subject: Shidduchim

Yehuda Poch writes:

> The second is that the community of baalei batim must begin to take on
> their part as well.  Carl's point is fantastic.  The best shidduchim are
> made by people who "know you really well".  Shadchanim almost never do.
> If every ba'al habayis would invite two girls and two guys of similar
> ages over for every shabbos meal for two months, the number of shiduchim
> would drastically increase.  No knack for it is needed.  Invite them for
> a shabbos meal, and leave the rest up to them.  If it doesn't work, at
> least you tried, and you can always invite them again with another
> group.

So *that's* what you meant by baalebatim getting involved - I was 
wondering :-)  To me this sounds like a fair challenge, and I am 
willing to take you up on it.  So I am going to make an offer 
(effective after my wife reads this letter, but before it is sent) 
that I have made on another list, and I really, sincerely mean it.  
If you are single and in Israel and wish to spend Shabbos with a 
family we will be happy to have you.  I cannot guarantee you that 
there will be members of the opposite sex at the table who are not 
members of my family (since you would probably have to come for an 
entire Shabbos, sleeping accomadations would be be difficult), but I 
can guarantee you that when I meet another single I am more likely to 
think of you if I had you for Shabbos a month ago than if I have 
never met or spoken with you.  *That's* a role I think every baalebos 
can play, whether or not he lives in a community full of singles (I 
do not).

> I once specifically told a shadchan, in answer to her question, that I
> would not consider dating someone who was just becoming frum, since
> there would be too much upheaval going on in her life for her to
> consider a long-term relationship.  (I would consider a ba'al teshuva,
> but not one who is just now becoming frum, that's all.)  Two days later,
> this shadchan set me up with exactly the girl I told her I would not
> date.  I told the shadchan that I had no intention of calling and
> re-stated my reason.  I never heard from that shadchan again, in what is
> now approaching two years.
>  Sometimes, the shadchanim have no idea of what a person is looking for,
> and more importantly, the shadchanim don't listen when they are told.

I wonder if there is a problem with the way in which shadchanim are 
paid.  IMHO a shadchan should only be paid upon conclusion of a 
successful shidduch, not for putting an eligible person's name in the 
hopper or for arranging a date.  But I really don't know enough about 
how the system works these days to know whether or not I am taking a 
shot in the dark with that comment.

-- Carl Sherer

P.S. If anyone is interested in taking us up on the offer to come for 
Shabbos, whether now or in the future, please email us privately.  I 
try to avoid putting our home address and phone number on publicly 
accessible lists.

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 13:20:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Shiduchim

	Maybe its just me, but I find it reprehnsible to talk about
other jews as b'deveds.  Now, I am currently looking for my basherete,
and I am less than pleased with the system as it is currently employed.
However, I do not and would not ever refer to any other jew as my
	Perspective matches dont work for any number of reasons, some
more serious than others.  But, what kind of middos are we exhibiting if
we feel we are somehow better than other yidden?  If we as a community
feel the unfortunate need to consider anyone b'deveds, shouldnt it be
people who have developed such callous and contempt atitudes toward
others, rather than people with disorders that are beyond there


End of Volume 25 Issue 47