Volume 25 Number 72
                      Produced: Tue Jan  7 22:20:10 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Kibi Hofmann]
         [Michael Berger]
Hevron (4)
         [Yehuda Poch, Benjamin Waxman, Avraham Husarsky, Zvi I. Weiss]
Minyan Terach
         [Gershon Dubin]
Source for Phrase 'arzei Levanon'
         [Hefter Family]
Terach Minyan
         [Oren Popper]
Where does it say...?
         [Israel Rosenfeld]


From: <ahofmann@...> (Kibi Hofmann)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:08:23 +0200
Subject: Chevron

With regard to the troubles in Chevron Russell Hendel writes in 

>                          Jewish law is very clear that when the 
>community has a need it should proclaim a public fast, examine its 
>sins, repent and then has the right more or less to expect that G-d 
>will answer them.  What is bothering me is that no one even tries 
>this anymore.

This HAS been done a number of times in Israel over the past couple of
years. Days of tefilla, fasting, hisorerus ["awakening"] etc. were
called and observed by many people. The fact that a large number of
people praying at the Kotel or in Kikar Shabbat, or even in Chevron
doesn't always get a lot of foreign news reportage doesn't mean it
didn't happen. So far our "rightful" expectation of G-d answering us has
not been fulfilled (unless you say He has answered us "No").

In addition, there was recently a very large gathering of dati'im in Tel
Aviv to pray for a wider observance of Shabbos after the Bar Ilan Street
Events....a large number of irreligious Israelis were extremely upset,
even though it was not officially a demonstration "against" them. They
felt (and I am not commenting at all on the truth of this) that they
were looked down upon by the religious - at best ignorant savages, at
worst heretics.

Similarly, I think you will find with Chevron. For everyone to come
together and pray for something they have to have at least enough
consensus to know what they are praying for. The religious/nationalist
group are really praying that Chevron should stay a Jewish city, which
they view as essential both in and of itself and as an insurance to the
safety of the rest of Israel. The non-religious/leftist group are
praying for Peace and a withdrawal from Chevron which they see as
essential both of itself as an amicable deal with the Arabs and as an
insurance of Peace in the rest of Israel.

I happen to be in the first group, but despite vehemently disagreeing
with the "left" I don't think that there is any way of proving the truth
of either side (even halachically). This is the realm of "pure" politics
- just as both socialists and capitalists believe that their systems are
the only ones which can function, so do the left and right in Israel.

My aim is not to argue against Dr. Hendel, as I agree that prayer is the
first and best answer but I think that to imagine that all of Israel
will come together over this issue is naive to say the least.



From: Michael Berger <mberg02@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:31:51 -0500 ()
Subject: Re: Hebron

re: Russell Hendel's suggested response to the Chevron shooting (mj 25
#70) of a public fast:

After the Rabin assassination in November 1995, Rabbi Michael Broyde (a
regular m-j contributor) of the Young Israel of Toco Hills in Atlanta
also sought an appropriate response, and a ta'anit tzibbur (public fast)
immediately came to mind.  Fortuitously, the following Monday was Be"hab
(the first Monday, Thursday, Monday of the months after Tishrei and
Nissan), and after consultation with several Yeshiva University rabbis
and one Hesder Rosh Yeshiva, he and a few other local rabbis put their
names to a letter on the importance of fasting that Monday. About 50
people fasted, and Rabbi Broyde spoke movingly between Mincha and
Ma'ariv that day about the cheshbon ha-nefesh we as members of klal
yisrael must make regarding the tone and content of the way we speak
about people who disagree with us.  I was privileged to be among those
fasting and in attendance.  

Michael Berger
Emory University - Atlanta, GA


From: Yehuda Poch <yehuda@...>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 22:41:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Hevron

 Russell Hendel asks some very pertinent questions about the frum
community's actions regarding Hevron.
 I am reminded of the Gulf War, when most communities in North America
joined in a public 24-hour study period on the Sunday before the
deadline (Jan.15).  At the largest shul in Toronto, we had a
24-hour-straight beis medrash program including shiurim, lectures,
chavrusas, etc.  It went from 8:00 am to 8:00 am, beginning and ending
with shacharis.  Other communities, such as NY, Chicago, LA, etc. also
had such programs that day.
 It amazed me that close to 45,000 people showed up in Toronto over the
course of the day. (The frum community here is not quite that large.)
At 2:00 am there were over 500 people learning in shul.

 That was accomplished because the nation was unified and felt
threatened by Iraq's stance.

 Today, there is no such unity, even within the Orthodox world.  My shul
is a bastion of the right.  The vast majority of the big name right-wing
activists in the Toronto frum community daven at my shul (thought not
quite all).  Our membership is a cross between bnai akiva and yeshivish,
with a strong YU bent in the middle.  Our rabbi is a YU grad, and the
son-in-law of Rav Aharon Soloveichik.

 And yet, we have four or five prominent members who are Peace Now
supporters and vocally so at times.  I have yet to figure out how they
reconcile the two positions, but somehow they do.
 A program like that 24-hour beismedrash program is all fine and good
when the issue is existance.  But Hevron is likely to be seen by most
people as a political issue, and thus, such a program will likely not
generate the desired -- and necessary -- response.

Are there any suggestions as to how this can be overcome?

|\\\\\\\\\                   Yehuda Poch                   /////////|
|xxxxxx          <yehuda@...>          xxxxxx|
|/////////      www.interlog.com/~yehuda       \\\\\\\\\|

From: Benjamin Waxman <benjaminw@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 06:59:37 +0200
Subject: Re: Hevron

Dr. Hendel wrote:
>This mornings headlines about the shooting in Chevron led me to think
>about a "proper" jewish response to our natural desire to keep
>Chevron. Halacha DOES speak about this. It does not suggest shootings or
>uttering Psulta DNuras.  Jewish law is very clear that when the
>community has a need it should proclaim a public fast, examine its sins,
>repent and then has the right more or less to expect that G-d will
>answer them.  What is bothering me is that no one even tries this
>anymore. . . . .
>What bothers me is that as orthodox people we believe in G-ds
>providence.  Communal prayer is one of the few mitzvoth that affirms
>this. Why has it been so neglected today especially now that we need it.

Doctor, this is simply untrue. Perhaps at Drexel you are not informed about
what goes on in Quiryat Arba, but the solutions that you offer (prayer and
fasting) are peformed constantly.  This Wendsday, the 29th of Tevet, Yom
Kippur Katan, has been declared a day of fastinng, prayer and selichot by
Rav Dov Lior, the Rabbi of Quiryat Arba/Hebron.  This is not the first fast
proclaimed by Rav Lior (and observed by many people there), and it is for
for the very purpose which you describe.

[It is not only at Drexel that Russel may be uninformed, I would venture
to say that it is true of the great majority of the Orthodox Jewish
community in the US. I have heard nothing about this in Highland Park,
NJ as well, and I would venture to guess that very few of the US readers
of this list are aware of it. Part of that may be what Russel is
pointing out. Mod]

Ben Waxman, Technical Writer
<BenjaminW@...>, www.livelink.com
        Tel. +972-2-6528274, Fax. +972-2-6528356

From: <hoozy@...> (Avraham Husarsky)
Date: Sun,  5 Jan 97 17:59:47 PST
Subject: Re: Hevron

A public fast for wednesday jan 8, 1997, erev rosh chodesh shvat, was
declared by the kiryat arba/chevron rabbinate with the blessing of Rav
Shapiro and Rav Eliyahu, former chief rabbis.  There will be a public
mincha and maariv tefillah at the mearat hamachpelah at about 3:00
p.m. IST. All are welcome to attend or to organize similar services in
their respective hometowns.

Name: Avraham Husarsky
E-mail: <hoozy@...>

From: <weissz@...> (Zvi I. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 97 10:12:52
Subject: Re: Hevron

I would add - in support of this -- that it appears from the RamBam we
are REQUIRED to declare fasting/repentance when various terrible
calamities take place.  That one how "hardens his [her] heart" and does
NOT so respond is guilty of a terrible sin....  How much "worse" (Chas
V'shalom) does it have to get for us before we "wake up" and follow
thorugh on Repentance/Fasting/Prayer...?



From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:38:18 PST
Subject: Re: Minyan Terach

>Does anyone know the origin and intention of the expression "minyan 
	The intention is that we learn zrizus (zeal) in performing a
mitzva from the fact that Avrohom Avinu awoke early  >in the morning<
for, e.g. the akedah.  The presumption is that earlier rising than that
is for Avrohom's predecessor Terach. 
	The origin?  No idea.



From: <hefter@...> (Hefter Family)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 08:52:33 -0400
Subject: Source for Phrase 'arzei Levanon'

        The term 'arzei levanon' is used in the kinot on tisha b'av to
introduce the paragraph describing the martyrdom of the 'asara harugei
malchus'. The question has come up as to the earliest use of this
phrase/original source of this phrase, used in this context. Any
insights would be appreciated.


From: Oren Popper <opopper@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:14:41 -0500 (est)
Subject: Re: Terach Minyan

> From: <ascent@...> (Yrachmiel Tilles)

> Does anyone know the origin and intention of the expression "minyan Terach"
> for those congregations who dovven shacharis amidah before sunrise?

The origin of this expression is (probably) Chassidic (folk), where
Davening early in the morning is not considered as important as Davening
with the proper preperation (learning Chassidus). The expression is
derived from the posuk "VaYashkem Avrohom BaBoker", which, as Rashi
explains is a praise to Avrohom. The deduction from this is that getting
up before the "morning" to do a mitzva, is unnecessary overkill,
otherwise Avrohom would have done so. Therefore, Avrohom and his
followers get up in the morning to Daven, those who Daven in the
pre-dawn hours, are pre-Avraham folowers.



From: Israel Rosenfeld <iir@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:06:48 +0200
Subject: Where does it say...?

Some 15 years ago, I think I saw the following dvar Torah (Torah
thought). I am wondering if anyone can corroborate my memory or correct

******** Quote (?)

The Midrash says that the Daily Morning Sacrifice in the
    Beit Hamikdash (Holy Temple) obtains forgiveness
    for sins done during the night. The Daily Afternoon Sacrifice
    does the same for sins done during the day.
The question is asked, "What affect do these sacrifices have on one
    who is completely devoid of sin?"
The answer is (Breishit 9:27) "Yaft Elokim leyefet ve yishkon
    be'ahalei Shem" - The Temple built by Yefet's offspring (the
    Second Temple) will be prettier but the temples built by
    Shem's offspring (the Mishkan and the First Temple)
    will have the power 'to rest' the spirit of Hashem during
    the daily sacrifices on people devoid of sin.
As a result, during the sacrificing, children (not being responsible,
    they are devoid of sin) would make a circle near the Mizbeach
    (Altar) and prophecy. A person who wanted to plant his fields
    would bring his son to see the sacrifice and would then ask him
    when it will rain, etc.
One day, Saul the son of Kish went looking for two missing donkeys
    and for the first time in his life, he was present at a daily
    sacrifice. It says (Shmuel-I 13:1) "Ben shanah Shaul bemolcho"
    (one year of King Saul's reign) and the Talmud (B. Yoma 22b) says
    "Rabbi Huna said, devoid of sin as a one-year old". Also, the
    Talmud says that when a person is given a prophecy, it
    "burns his insides" till he says it.
So Saul now found himself with a prophecy burning to get out! On the
    other hand, it says (Shmuel-I 10:22) "nechba el hakelim", Saul was
    modest. So he looks around,  sees a circle of kids, and says to
    himself, "these kids don't know what it means to prophecy, I'll
    stand amongst them and say my prophecy".
But Saul was tall (Shmuel-I 10:23) "meshichmo ve'maalah" (tall) and
    people who knew of this phenomenon, but had never seen an adult
    prophecy, cried (Shmuel-I 10:11) "Hagam Shaul baneviim?" (Saul
    too stands amongst the prophets?).

Elkanah, the father of Shmuel, also became a prophet by being present
    at the daily sacrifice and being devoid of sin.

********** End quote.

Now, as the Talmud says, "Im ein raaya ledavar, zecher ledavar", if I
    have no direct proof, I can bring something connected. In the
    Zohar Hakadosh, Shmot 154a it says that at the time people said
    "Hagam Shaul baneviim?", Saul really was a prophet.
So my memory has some backing.

I am seeking the "address" of the above for two reasons:
    1) It's a beautiful dvar Torah, but people's automatic reaction
        is, "Voo shtait?!" (where does it say?)
    2) I have seen a number of times where members of mail-jewish
        and torah-forum have asked for the differences between the
        First and Second Temples and this only difference which I
        know for which I have no reference.

So: Where does it say...?

Behatzlacha raba.

Israel Rosenfeld


End of Volume 25 Issue 72