Volume 25 Number 74
                      Produced: Thu Jan  9 21:58:27 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Grammer of uritzon SHOCNI sneh
         [Ovadiah Dubin]
Incorrect Pronunciation/Pronunciation of "o"
         [Rick Turkel]
         [Reuven G Muller]
Pronunciation of the Quommatz
         [Chaim Wasserman]
Proper Pronunciation
         [Shlomo Godick]
She'hecheyanu on Yom Tov (3)
         [David Merzel, Chips, Menashe Elyashiv]


From: <ovad@...> (Ovadiah Dubin)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 09:21:08 EST
Subject: Re: Grammer of uritzon SHOCNI sneh

I thank Prof. Hendel for his thoughts concerning "uritzon SHOCNI sneh" .
It would seem to me that the word shocni is not a nismoch, but rather ,
as most miforshim explain, a poetic expression similar to Psalms116:7,
and should be considered as a normal nifrod: as if it were written

    Ovadiah Dubin


From: <rturkel@...> (Rick Turkel)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 05:22:46 -0500
Subject: Incorrect Pronunciation/Pronunciation of "o"

Les Train <ltrain@...> wrote in m.j 25#68:

>The long vowel o in biblical hebrew is a dipthong (more correctly - was
>a dipthong). This means it was originally pronounced as an o with a w
>glide after - making it a long vowel, as in the Englishword "Coke", as
>opposed to cock (short vowel).

I'd like to see Les's references on this one.  I've been looking at the
history of the Hebrew language on and off for longer than I care to
admit, and I've never seen any reference to this.  It's true that a
cholem (a vav with a dot above) was traditionally a long "o," but that
doesn't necessitate a w-glide.  I believe that David Oratz
<dovid@...> was correct when he wrote in the same issue:

> Until the American Golus, it was
>never pronounced that way, and it was only the pronunciation of the
>American O that affected the pronunciation of the Cholom.

That said (written?), I think Les is correct when he writes:

>Dialects and pronunciations change over time and in diferent lands, but
>I don't think it fair to label some 'right' and some 'wrong', especially
>when some traditions have over 1000 years of history behind them, and
>greater people than ourselves used them.

Later in that same issue of m.j, Arnold Kuzmack <kuzmack@...>

>3.  Oy vey: The Hebrew vowel kholam, the little dot over the vav, is
>pronounced as oy in Hebrew/Aramaic words used in Yiddish (see examples
>above).  It is also used in reading Hebrew.  I don't know the origin of
>this pronounciation: in particular, did it develop in Hebrew and get
>picked up in Yiddish, or vice versa?

My understanding is that it started in Yiddish rather than in Hebrew.
If the opposite were true it would be evident in the Hebrew of those
whose ancestors came from areas where Yiddish was unknown, and that
isn't the case.  (As it is, most Litvaks pronounce it as "ey," not "oy,"
e.g., "meyse" rather than "moyshe.")  I think it might be traceable to a
well attested vowel shift in Ukrainian, where all "o" sounds in closed
syllables became "i," but I could be wrong.

In any case, if one listens carefully, it's not all cholems that become
"oy" (at least not among non-Litvak native Yiddish speakers), but only
those in stressed syllables or in word-final position.

Just my NIS 0.06-worth.

Rick Turkel         (___  _____  _  _  _  _  __     _  ___   _   _  _  ___
<rturkel@...>)oh.us|   |  \  )  |/  \     |    |   |   \__)    |
<rturkel@...>        /      |  _| __)/   | ___)    | ___|_  |  _(  \    |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money.  Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.


From: <reuvenmuller@...> (Reuven G Muller)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 00:16:06 EST
Subject: Re: Pronunciation

Regarding the issue of the correct pronunciation of the cholem, there is
a chapter about this in a sefer "Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz" which is a
sefer that discusses variances among ashkenazic customs. (I'm not sure
who the author is.)  It discusses the different sources and reasons for
the "o", "oy", and "ay" (litvish pronunciation).  One interesting tidbit
that is brought down is that when R' Yaakov Kamenetsky zt'l would say
Kerias Shema he would say it with an "o" (to fulfill his chiuv
correctly).  The chapter concludes with strong proofs for "o" over the
other possibilities, but basically it depends on one's minhag.


From: <Chaimwass@...> (Chaim Wasserman)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:59:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of the Quommatz

Dovid Oratz message dated 97-01-04 wrote:

<< For my part, I think I prefer the company of those who for
generations "mistakenly" said the Cholom as in "Oy" to those who
mistakenly say it as in "low"!  >>

It would be of interest to know on what basis he expresses this
preference.  For the distinguished rebbi of the Chasam Sofer, haGaon Rav
Nosson Adler, called upon the London CHacham, , to instruct him in the
proper pronunciation of Hebrew.

chaim wasserman


From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:47:17 -0800
Subject: re: Proper Pronunciation

Lon Eisenberg wrote:
> I can appreciate the concept of pronunciation according to messorah
> (tradition), but not when it is clearly incorrect:

But where do you draw the line?  I once discovered a distinguished,
rabbinic-looking gentleman in his late fifties, doing duty as baal koreh
at an ashkenazic shul in B'nei B'rak.  He distinguished aleph from ayin,
but also made pains to distinguish:

1) tet from taf (change in position of tongue against teeth)
2) vet from vav (vav is waw - the Yemenite vav)
3) chet from khaf (Sephardic/Yemenite chet)
4) kuf from kaf (kuf is deeper in the throat)
5) thaf from samech (Yemenite thaf)
6) daled from thaled (with/without dagesh - hard "th" as in "then")
7) gimmel from rimmel (with/without dagesh - another possibility is the
   Yemenite jimmel. By the way, the "r" of rimmel is more gutteral; the "r"
   of resh is rolled)

His argument was simple: it cannot be that two different Hebrew letters
are pronounced exactly the same.  By the way, the Sephardim also claim
that Tsade is not pronounced "ts" but is closer to samech ("ts" is not a
pure letter).

On what basis have you decided that ignoring the difference between ayin
and aleph is more "clearly incorrect" than the other above distinctions?
On the other hand, I can personally say that if I were to undertake
making all of the above distinctions, it would take me all day to daven
shachris.  Additionally, with all my concentration going into
pronunciation, my kavana would be close to zero.

I think that with a view to consistency *and* practicality, it is
preferrable to rely on one's mesora rather that arbitrarily adopting
certain distinctions while ignoring others which are equally valid.


Shlomo Godick
Email: <shlomog@...>


From: <MerzelMazl@...> (David Merzel)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:57:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: She'hecheyanu on Yom Tov

Jonathon Katz asks why it is not recommended to say the b'racha of
she'hecheyanu when lighting Yom Tov candles.
The subject of lighting candles at all on Yom Tov in an interesting one.
 There is no mention at all in the Talmud Bavli of lighting candles on
Yom Tov.  The Rambam speaks of lighting candles on Shabbas as a "chova"
- an obligation, but makes no mention at all of lighting candles on Yom
 Hagahos Maimoniyos says there is a minhag - custom- to light candles on
Yom Tov and brings as his proof for this a Talmud Yerushalmi which says
"One who lights [on Yom Tov] must make a b'racha," the inference being,
according to him, that it is a reasonable minhag to observe.
 The Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 263, 5 discusses the b'racha when
lighting candles on Shabbas and then says "...on Yom Tov also the one
must make the b'racha of 'asher kidshanu..."  The Mishna Brura (se'if
katan 23) says it is not necessary to say "z'man," i.e. she'hecheyanu,
and brings down Rabbi Akiva Eger quoting the Ya'avetz as saying where
women have the minhag to say she'hecheyanu it is not necessary to stop
them ("ayn limchos biyadan") Actually, the Ya'avetz is quite vehement in
saying that the minhag to say she'hecheyanu while lighting candles is
wrong and should not be done.  The reason is that in the Talmud in
several places it is quite clear that the b'racha of she'hecheyanu was
made part of kiddush, although the chiyuv of the b'racha is relevant
throughout Yom Tov, so that if one forgets to add she'hecheyanu to
kiddush, he can recite at any point during Yom Tov.  Since it is a
b'racha that is required to be recited on Yom Tov (and the chova results
from the fact it is Yom Tov rather than from the fact that one is saying
kiddush or lighting candles), the b'racha is recited only once during
Yom Tov (leaving aside from this discussion the second day of Yom Tov
observed in galus).  Since Chazal established that the b'racha be
recited as part of kiddush, it really does not belong as part of candle
lighting, since kiddush is to be recited soon.  Certainly if a man
lights candles and says she'hecheyanu, he must not say it while making
kiddush, because that would constitute a b'racha l'vatala - a b'racha
using Hashem's name needlessly.
 Since a married woman is generally yotzai - fulfills the obligation -
kiddush with her husband's kiddush, if she has already said
she'hecheyanu while lighting candles, then when he says it during
kiddush it does not fulfill any chova for her.  In fact, it would seem
that (except, perhaps, for R. Akiva Eger's mild reading of Ya'avetz) if
she were to answer amen to her husband's she'hecheyanu, it would be an
impermissable hefsek - interruption - between her hearing of kiddush and
drinking from the kiddush cup.

[Similar reasoning to the last paragraph was also submitted by:
	Stuart A. Cohnen <cohnen@...>

  Finally, on Yom Kippur where the
obligation of lighting candles is well established, but for reasons
entirely unrelated to the reason for Shabbas and Yom Tov, it is quite
clear that women should not say she'hecheyanu when lighting candles, but
instead between Kol Nidre and Ma'ariv, when everyone recites it along
with the chazzan (finishing before the chazzan to be able to answer amen
to the chazzan's bracha).

[Second message received and combined. Mod.]

Further to last night's rather lengthy reply to Jonathon Katz's question
about reciting She'hecheyanu when lighting Yom Tov candles, one final
thing comes to mind: How about the second night of Rosh HaShana?
 Since the two days Rosh HaShana are considered in halacha as a Yoma
Arichta - one long day - there is a question whether the b'racha of
She-hecheyanu is to be recited at all on the second day.  Therefore, we
are advised to either wear a new garment upon which we have not yet said
She'hecheyanu, or, as has become the common minhag, eat a pri chadash -
a fruit we have not eaten in the past year.  Then, when saying kiddush,
have the fruit on the table and specifically have in mind that the
b'racha of She'hecheyanu will also cover the required she'hecheyanu on
the new fruit.  That works out reasonably since kiddush is part of the
meal and the fruit will be eaten during that meal, the b'racha at
kiddush can take care of the fruit during the meal.
 However, licht bentchen is not ordinarily considered part of the meal
and thus might raise a problem: Even holding,as the Mishna B'rura
apparently does, that it is all right to allow women to recite
she'hecheyanu while lighting candles, what do we do when there is a
sh'aila if she'hecheyanu is to be recited at all?  (This is especially
so since we pasken safek b'rachos l'kula- if uncertain whether a b'racha
need be recited, we don't say it.)  To get around this it would seem to
me, although I do not take it upon myself to pasken halacha, that, at
the very least, the woman should bentch licht immediately before kiddush
(which works out ok since the second day of Rosh HaShana cannot fall on
Shabbas) and the pri chadash should be on the table where candles are
lighted and kiddush said.  Perhaps (?) it would be preferrable to
suggest that she wear something new which would kick in the requirement
for she'hecheyanu.
 I would like to hear any reaction to this final point.

On a completely unrelated subject, I noticed that in Parshas Shmos 3,20,
the word Eseh (aleph, ayin, sin, hay) with a sh'va under the ayin rather
than the more common chataf-segol (see, for example, the last pasuk of
the sidra).  I assume that the sh'va, then must be sh'va nach, since the
chataf is used in place of a sh'va na. My questions: is there any
significance toi this meaning-wise? or, if it is a sh'va na, why is it
punctuated differently here?  Another question on the sidra: Throughout
Perek 5 the word teven - wheat - appears a number of times, frequently
at an esnachta or a sof-pasuk, yet the first segol is never changed to a
kamatz as is usually the case?  Any comments?
 David Merzel

From: Chips <chips@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:44:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: She'hecheyanu on Yom Tov

From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
>I learned recently that it is not recommended for one to bless a
>"she'hechiyanu" after lighting candles for Yom Tov  .....
>Why is it recommended that this bracha not be made? And, why has it
>become almost a universal custom to say the bracha anyway?

The concern is that if the women make the 'brocha' then when they hear
it in 'Kiddush' it would be a 'hefsek' (an interuption) for them, since
it wouldn't have any application to them.  I happened to have covered
this issue in Yeshiva (if someone on the list knows Zvi Axelman in
Baltimore they can get the sources from him). The isue is more
applicaple to the 2nd day YomTov. Even so, there are two points to
counter this concern.  First, as Jonathan points out, it is a universal
custom and has been for over 300 years.  An early "Acharon" (medieval
commentary?) wrote that he came to the conclusion that his wife
shouldn't make the 'brocha' and told her so. She told him that her
mother did it, her grandmother did it and her great-grandmother did it;
so she is going to do it. And she did.  The "Acharon" finishes that he
had no argument to give to her.

Secondly, Rav Moshe thought not much of the concern. Rav Moshe points
out other occasions where the same situation occurs and there is no
concern mentioned. Specifically, on 'Sukos' when the husband makes
"Leisheiv ba'Suko" and the women are not even in the 'Suko'.

From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:09:49 +0200 (WET)
Subject: She'hecheyanu on Yom Tov

The Sepharadi Minhag is not to say Sheheheyanu on Yom Tov, and to say it
only at Kiddush. Only in Bagdad it was said but today that custom is not

           Menashr Elyashiv Bar Ilan U Lib. of Jewish Studies


End of Volume 25 Issue 74