Volume 25 Number 79
                      Produced: Sun Jan 12 23:45:10 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Rabinowitz]
Arzei Levanon
         [Sarah Kaiserman]
Bone Marrow Transplants
         [Zvi I. Weiss]
         [Zev Sero]
Kohanim on Planes
         [Steve White]
Learning Trop
         [Les & Shayne Train]
         [Chana Luntz]
         [Akiva Miller]
Seudah Shlishi
         [Bert L. Kahn]
Standing or sitting for Kiddush
         [Ira Walfish]
Support Groups
         [Arlene Mathes-Scharf]
Zmanim: Latitude and Longitude
         [Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund]


From: Avi Rabinowitz <avirab@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:44:13 +0200 (IST)
Subject: AOJS

I am a physicist, and am posting this message on behalf of an
association of Jewish scientists based in New York. We are interested in
contacting Jewish math/science people, including grad students and
undegraduates with a major in these fields.
	We have occasional meetings and conferences organized around
topics of interest to scientists as Jews. Right now most of the present
members are in the medical and social sciences, and the discussions are
relevant to these areas, but we're interested in broadening our base.
	The name of the organization is "The Association of Orthodox
Jewish Scientists" (AOJS). Membership is not limited to the Orthodox,
but the discussion topics are intended to reflect the interests of
scientists as Jews, and particularly to Orthodox Jewish scientists. For
example, the medical people talk alot about medical ethics, transplant
policy, euthanasia etc, from the point of view of the Jewish ethical
system and halacha. Sometimes there are discusions about how a
particular aspect of science impinges on religious belief in general or
the Bible in particular (Hawking's idea of closed time for example).We
will be glad to take suggestions for discussion topics, and encourage
others to offer to give lectures.
	Generally the meetings are in the NY area unless there is
sufficient demand in some other area. There is also a large annual
conference in the summer in upstate NY.

	A number of people responded to my messages on various lists,
and soon I hope that we will have a large group of math/sci/tech people.
(Non- math/sci people: please write to me at 1617 Avenue K Brooklyn NY
11230 - I don't want to be swamped with e-mail.)  It will be up to those
who join in to decide what topics are of interest.  Some discussions
will be on the net, some live at conferences.
	Do you have friends/colleagues with topics they would like to
see addressed?
	In a few weeks I will post the results of the responses, and
suggested topics etc.

	Please indicate your fields of specialty and of special interest
in general, and then the areas that might be of interest to you as a
Jewish scientist. If you would be willing to lecture on some topic, tell
	Indicate where you live - it is not always apparent from the
e-mail address alone.
        Reply to this e-address.
        Thank you.


From: Sarah Kaiserman <yu200420@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:01:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Arzei Levanon

> From: <hefter@...> (Hefter Family)
>         The term 'arzei levanon' is used in the kinot on tisha b'av to
> introduce the paragraph describing the martyrdom of the 'asara harugei
> malchus'. The question has come up as to the earliest use of this
> phrase/original source of this phrase, used in this context. Any
> insights would be appreciated.

I believe that trees were imported from Lebanon (which would be "Arzei
Levanon") by Shlomo Hamelech (King Solomon) for the building of the Beis
Hamikdash. Perhaps whoever wrote the Kina for the "asara harugei
malchus" (ten martyrs) had this in mind as the great Rabbis safeguarded
our spirituality, just as the Beis Hamikdash did.

-Sarah Kaiserman


From: <weissz@...> (Zvi I. Weiss)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 97 09:02:21
Subject: Re: Bone Marrow Transplants

Regarding Marrow transplants, I have just read in the most recent
newsletter from the HLA Registry Foundation, Inc. (where I am
registered...) that there is an additional procedure for obtaining stem
cells -- where it is actually "harvested" from the blood.  I do not have
the article in front of me -- but the two procedures (obtaining stem cells
from marrow vs. obtaining stem cells from blood) are presented as somewhat
complementary to each other.  If this is the case, then even those afraid
of the hip-bone procedure would be able to donate via this alternate
procedure.  Since that second procedure appears to involve no more than
the drawing of blood, I do not see how one can say that they are not
obligated to do even that much for someone.... N.B. I just heard on the
train (this involving non-jews) where the sibling of a sick person refused
to donate for that person -- even though it means that the sick person
will almost surely die...  Clearly, if B'nei Yisrael are described as
"Rachmonim b'nei rachmonim" (merciful ones sons of merciful ones), I think
that *we* should be at the "other extreme"...  Just a thought. --Zvi

<weissz@...> (Zvi I. Weiss)


From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 10:19:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Converts

> not Calvin, but the
> gemorra discussing the laws of conversion that says: "When a convert
> converts [ger sh'mitgayer]" and not "a non-jew that converts [goy
> sh'mitgayer]". 

I've never understood this argument, since `ger shenitgayer' is being 
compared to `tinok shenolad'; the parallel to `goy shenitgayer' would 
be `ke'ubar shenolad'.  A foetus is not a `tinok' until it's born, so
why should we say that someone who later becomes a convert was a `ger'
before the conversion?

Apropos of all this, what's the status of someone between mila and
tevila?  I recently participated in a hatafat dam brit, and we said
the brachot and gave him a Jewish name.  If he never goes through
with the rest of it, or does so before a passul `bet din', were our
brachot retroactively said in vain?  And what's the status of his
name right now?  A name defines the soul (shma milta hi; a parent
has ruach hakodesh (minor prophecy) when deciding a baby's name),
so does he have a Jewish name right now, or will it only come into
effect if and when he completes the conversion?  (possibly `veyikare
shmo beyisrael' - and his name *will* be called, once he's a Jew,
instead of the usual translation: and his name *shall* be called).

Zev Sero		Don't blame me, I voted for Harry Browne


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:24:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Kohanim on Planes

In #73, Zvi Weiss writes:
>  The prohibition for Kohanim refers -- I believe -- only to specific
>  types of Tum'ah associated with a Corpse.  The residual Tum'ah of the
>  plane (which I believe falls under the category of "Cherev harei hu
>  k'chalal") is NOT one which is proscribed to Kohanim.  The Netziv -- in
>  fact -- references this matter in a couple of places in the chumash and
>  notes that the Kohein is only proscribed from Tum'ah that a Nazir would
>  be required to "shave over" were said Nazir to become Tamei from that
>  Tum'ah and since a Nazir (according to the Netziv) is NOt required to
>  "shave over" the tuma'h caused by "Cherev..", the Kohein would not be
>  proscribed either.....

In any case, in this discussion I have not yet seen something that I
thought I saw in mj quite a while back.  The technology that seems to be
used by the airlines these days seems to be (I was led to believe) that
the aron [casket] (kli/vessel 1) is placed inside a second kli/vessel,
thereby completely isolating the tuma from the plane and its contents.
Is this not correct?

Steven White


From: Les & Shayne Train <ltrain@...>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:32:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Learning Trop

There is a book by A. W. Binder, called Biblical Chant, published by
Philosophical Library in 15 East 40th St., New York. He seems to cover all
the variations - shirat hayyam, Yom Kippur, Esther, eicha, megillot,
haftoras etc. All notes are written out musically, in all possible
Binder taught at the Hebrew Union College.
Les Train


From: Chana Luntz <heather@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:48:53 +0000
Subject: Plagerism

In message <199701080324.WAA27376@...>, ahofmann@ndc.co.il
(Kibi Hofmann) writes:

>I was actually amazed that there WAS a teshuva from Reb Moshe ZT"L on
>the subject. Could anyone who read it tell me if he mentions something
>along the lines that he was shocked at the assumption it might be

Note that not all the teshuva's in Iggeros Moshe appear to be responses
to a particular question - the teshuva right before the one in Iggeros
Moshe that I brought -on the prohibition of institutions of torah, such
as yeshivos, taking more money from the government than the amount fixed
(eg by artifically inflating the numbers of students) does not appear to
be in response to a question, and is undated, and in it he says that
there is no suspicion that Roshe Yeshivos and yirei shamayim would
possibly do such a thing, but because it was such a great issur, it was
important that such statements be made to better guide 'volunteers' [I
am not sure I am translating this right - misnadev?] who might perchance
stumble into this great issur [prohibition].

 However, in the teshuva I quoted - he was responding to an individual -
about what the individual had 'heard' - and he assures the individual
that what he has heard must have come from those who hate yeshivos, and
are resentful that those in yeshivos do better than their schools (even
if such statements appear in famous newspapers).  In such a situation,
it may well not have been appropriate to express shock that such a
question should need to have been asked - at least not to the
questioner. The questioner may well have been seeking a reinforcement of
his own sense of basic decency in the face of bad publicity, and to say
'one shouldn't need to ask such a question' may undermine rather than
strengthen that sense, especially when people are bandying about
'lamdishe'[learned] words as justifications.



From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:15:34 -0500
Subject: re: Pronunciation

In MJ 25:74, Shlomo Godick mentional a baal koreh who made pains to
distinguish tet from taf, vet from vav, chet from khaf, kuf from kaf,
thaf from samech, daled from thaled, and gimmel from rimmel. I have
often wondered if there is anyone, anywhere, who distinguishes between a
samech and a sin.


From: <bilk1@...> (Bert L. Kahn)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:22:41 -0800
Subject: Seudah Shlishi

    I would appreciate receiving articles , texts ,references to
articles/texts or other sources, in /English, dealing with the third
Sabbath meal/Shalash Sudos, its origins, halachot, customs and different
observances in various countries. Does anyone have knowledge of the
Yerushalmi view that its observance will bring the Meshiach.

    In addition to replies to the list, please E-mail or FAX any
material or comments to me.


From: <Ira_Walfish@...> (Ira Walfish)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:01:00 -0400
Subject: Standing or sitting for Kiddush

I'm not sure if this has been discussed previously or not, but I have a
question on whether standing or sitting is appropriate for kiddush.

Specifically, with respect to Friday night, it appears that the Mechaber
states that one should stand for Va'yechulu (Siman 271 - 10), so
presumably one should sit for the Bracha and the remainder of kiddush.
The Rama notes that one is "allowed to stand" but it is preferable to
sit.  The Mishna Brerua gives the 2 reasons for sitting - (1) Kiddush
BeMakom Siduah (Kiddush at the place of eating) and (2) Kviot - there is
a permanence when one sits and since one is being "Motze" (usually)
others, it is preferable to sit.  A third reason is that Va'yechulu is
considered a testimony that Hashem created the heaven and earth, and
when one gives Eidut (testimony), one stands.  (So, that holds for

However, one could stand on Friday night for the entire kiddush,
following the Arizal, based on the reason that Shabbos is considered a
Kallah, and just as one stands when the Kallah is married, one can
welcome Shabbos, the Kallah, and stand.  Also, Rav Moshe ZT'L, points
out in Sefer Techumin (Questions and Answers of Rav Moshe), that one
could stand for the entire Friday night kiddush, as it is not respectul
to the kiddush to stand for the first part, Va'yechulu and sit for the

Therefore, my question is this:

On what basis (source?) do people stand for Shabbos lunch kiddush and
for Yom Tov Kiddush ? (I am aware of the Rambam, in Hilchot Sukkot, for
the first night of Sukkot, where the Rambam says one should stand,
implying that for the remainder of other kiddushes, one sits).  If
possible, please provide sources which discuss the issue.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Ira Walfish


From: Anonymous
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 01:29:48 -0600
Subject: Support Groups

Does anyone know of any Jewish support groups for people with
disabilities and chronic illness that are on-line?


From: Arlene Mathes-Scharf <ajms@...>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:49:07 -0500
Subject: Zemanim 

My web site http://www.kashrut.com is hosting a Zemanim counter. 
For US cites you can enter the city.
For non-US cities you need to know the latitude and longitude.
Please let us know, if you know of a Internet site which converts
a foreign city name to latitude and longitute.

Arlene Mathes-Scharf    | 
<ajms@...>        | The Internet's Premier Independent Kashrut
http://www.kashrut.com/ |             Information Source


From: Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund <sgutfreund@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:51:19 -0500
Subject: Zmanim: Latitude and Longitude

There is already a WWW service that uses the
UMich Geographic database. While this site was mainly
designed to give distance between towns, you can also use it
to get Latitude and Longitude for individual cities:


Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund		 	            <sgutfreund@...> 
GTE Laboratories,Waltham MA     


End of Volume 25 Issue 79