Volume 25 Number 95
                      Produced: Fri Jan 31  6:57:38 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

"Mezonos Bread" and Lechem Mishna
         [Francine S. Glazer]
Airborne Mezonos Rolls
         [Jack Hollander]
Airline Meals and Mezonot Rolls (2)
         [S.H. Schwartz, Ronald Greenberg]
Airplane Meals
         [Carl Singer]
Bread Machines & The Taking of Challah
         [David Brotsky]
Candy Throwing
         [Janice Gelb]
Fishing:  is it hunting?
         [Carolyn Lanzkron]
Halacha Weekly and Plastic Bottle Caps (v25 #87)
         [Neil Parks]
Hashem making couples
         [Moshe Poupko]
Neta Revai
         [S.H. Schwartz]
Netah Revai
         [Carl Sherer]
Standing/sitting for kiddush
         [Shoshana L. Boublil]
Throwing Candy
         [Steve White]


From: Francine S. Glazer <fglazer@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:33:33 -0500
Subject: "Mezonos Bread" and Lechem Mishna

our local supermarket recently started carrying a product called Quick
Breads.  they are all the dry ingredients: you add 12 oz. of beer or
seltzer, let it sit for 10 minutes, and bake.  they are very good, and
very convenient.

i believe that technically these products would fall into the category
of "mezonos bread", because they have no yeast and do not rise for a
prolonged period of time.  of course, as has been discussed here
recently, even "mezonos bread" products should be washed for, and one
should make hamotzi.

my question is, if we wash for these breads, are they suitable for use
as lechem mishna (the two challot used at shabbat meals)?  if not, why

fran glazer


From: Jack Hollander <100400.223@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:30:24 -0500
Subject: Airborne Mezonos Rolls

        I was also rather afronted by the OU hechsher notice which
virtually lectured to me about why I wasn't supplied with Mezonos
rolls ( rolls baked with juice rather than water so that  according to 
some, they can be eaten withour washing hands, reciting 'Hamotzei',
and Birkat  Hamazon etc.).    I have travelled frequently worldwide and
must note that the Glatt hechshser originating from Sydney  Australia
supplies Mezonos (Mezonot?) rolls, and thereby allows the traveller
to decide for him/her self how to handle the halachic side of eating.


From: S.H. Schwartz <shimmy@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:12:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Airline Meals and Mezonot Rolls

> From: Michael & Bonnie Rogovin <rogovin@...>

> Several questions are raised by this statement: Washing is ALWAYS
> inconvenient on an airplane, especially during meal service. If it is to
> be assumed that one cannot be reasonably expected to wash, then why
> provide the roll or make the main course of a snack meal a deli
> sandwich?  Is it not a problem of lifnei iver?

When I fly on a meal flight, I always ask for an aisle seat.  Granted, I
sometimes need to wait a few minutes until the flight attendants move
the service cart so I can reach the bathroom or galley.  But then,
washing is sometimes inconvenient in restaurants.  A small kosher
pizzaria in a NYC suburb does not have a "washing sink": on request, the
owner will bring a cup of water and a basin to the front counter.

An alternative to washing is to wear gloves while eating.  Perhaps the
caterers could include an inexpensive pair of disposable latex gloves in
the meal.

Steven (Shimon) Schwartz
With Rebecca, Forest Hills, NY: <shimmy@...>
NYNEX Science & Technology, Inc., White Plains, NY: <schwartz@...>

From: Ronald Greenberg <rig@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:51:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Airline Meals and Mezonot Rolls

  >On a recent airline flight a note was included with our kosher meal,

  >More significantly was this paragraph: "Bread and rolls are ha-motzee
  >and pas yisrael. The Orthodox Union requires that all our bread and
  >rolls be hamotzee because when eating a meal ("kovaya seudah") a person
  >is required to recite "hamotzee" even on a "mezonos" roll.  If washing
  >is inconvenient, may we suggest that you save the bread for another

Yes, I recently saw this, and I forgot to follow up on it with the
O-U.  I believe it is a mistake to stop making "mezonos" rolls.  My
understanding is that if it would be a "mezonos" roll, then one could
save it for later in one's trip to eat as a snack without washing.  So
the roll should have stayed as "mezonos" with only the insert being
changed to explain that one must still wash if it is eaten as part of
a full meal.  I think somebody should ask the O-U to enforce that

Ronald I. Greenberg	(Ron)		<rig@...>


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 00:06:28 UT
Subject: RE: Airplane Meals

It was most appropriate of the O-U to take a firm, clear stand on
Mezonos Rolls.  I believe the reasoning re: including motzei in meals
even when it might be difficult to wash is that if you can wash you
would therefore be able to eat them.  If not, take the home (or to
hotel) with you and enjoy later.

BTW - as someone who used to fly weekly, I agree that it's often
difficult to wash quickly as the attendants are in the aisles with their
food carts, however, planning, choice of seats and good luck (frequently
"special" meals are served first) can help.  Since I normally travel
with a (now plastic) jar of peanut butter, it's nice to have tasty /
nutritious kosher meals on planes or at hotels.  Many airlines and
hotels now have their act together, especially if you give them
sufficient lead time.  Hakoras HaTov to them and to the manufacturers of
the new microwaveable meals..


From: <DaveTrek@...> (David Brotsky)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:11:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bread Machines & The Taking of Challah

I am curious about whether it is necessary to take challah when using a
bread machine. If so, what is the best way to take challah?

The way the device works is as follows: you put in the ingredients in a
certain order, liquids last generally, the machine then mixes the
ingredients together (generally not immediately). Next the machine
kneads the dough and then lets it rise. It then bakes it, of course. The
standard setting on my machine is for this process to take three hours,
though you can set it for up to twelve hours and the machine will start
making the bread at the appropriate time. The amount of flour involved
is two to three cups. One possible solution is to set the machine on the
'dough setting', let it do its work, come back, take the challah and
reset it to bake. Obviously, this takes away much of the appeal of these
machines. Is there any way to 'take challah' at the beginning or end of
the process(i.e. after the bread is baked)?

I am aware that many opinions hold that 2lbs 10oz ( about 5 cups of
flour) is the minimum necessary to require taking challah even without a
bracha. Can we lechatchila (a priori) avoid this by using a bread
machine and never take challah?  Or do we have to invent a bread machine
that takes challah at the proper time? Now there is an idea...

David Brotsky
BILUBI - The Religious Zionists Young Professionals Group In NY
Check Out Our Website At http://www.echonyc.com/~ericg/bilubi


From: <janiceg@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:58:21 -0800
Subject: Candy Throwing

In Vol. 25 #87, Elanit Z. Rothschild writes:
> Good idea.  When my brother was bar-mitzvahed (they do it at bar
> mitzvahs too!) the Rabbi and gabbai of my shul just covered the Sefer
> Torah with a Talit and because of the risk of someone getting hurt from
> being hit with hard candies, my mother bought those soft, mushy Sunkist
> candies instead.

My ex-husband put on a pink hard hat right after he said the
bracha... The Sunkist candies are probably a good idea. At a friend's
wedding, the best man (who was serving as Gabbai) had his expensive
watch crystal cracked by a thrown hard candy.

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this     
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address.               


From: Carolyn Lanzkron <CLKL@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 15:50:39 UT
Subject: Fishing:  is it hunting?


I just heard an interesting question on the radio:
Is fishing the same as hunting in Jewish Law?



From: Neil Parks <nparks@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 15:09:43 EDT
Subject: Halacha Weekly and Plastic Bottle Caps (v25 #87)

>From: Yitzchok Adlerstein <yadler@...>
>There are no coincidences in this world.  It just so happens that Rav
>Doniel Neustadt's current weekly halacha column deals with this very

In particular, the issue based on Parshas Bo is the one that talks 
about opening bottles on Shabbos.

Here's how to get it (or other available back issues):

Point your BROWSER at:

or, with an FTP CLIENT,
 log on to torah.org and go to the directory: 

...This msg brought to you by NEIL PARKS      Beachwood, Ohio    
 mailto:<nparks@...>       http://www.en.com/users/neparks/


From: <mopo@...> (Moshe Poupko)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 22:06:42 PST
Subject: RE: Hashem making couples

From: <jackst@...> (Jack Stroh)
>What is the source in the gemara that Hashem now spends his time making
>Shiduchim? Thanks.

It appears in San.22A (at the bottom). The longer story associated with
R. Yosi b. Halaphta appears in Ber. Rabba 68:4

Name: Moshe Poupko
E-mail: <mopo@...>


From: S.H. Schwartz <shimmy@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:12:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Neta Revai

> From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>

> By the way, this year is Maaser Ani year and there are some Poskim
> who hold that the Maaser should be given to the poor.

How does this overlap/interact with the "ma'aser" that we separate by
halacha or minhag from net income/profit?

Steven (Shimon) Schwartz
With Rebecca, Forest Hills, NY: <shimmy@...>
NYNEX Science & Technology, Inc., White Plains, NY: <schwartz@...>


From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:27:15 +0200
Subject: Netah Revai

Lon Eisenberg writes:
> I believe that even outside Israel, 4th year fruit is redeemed.  The
> standard wording used when separating terumoth and ma`asseroth
> (tithes) includes wording for redeeming the neta` reva`i (using the
> same coin that is used for the ma`asser sheni).  I suppose outside
> Israel, you could limit the wording to that portion (since you are
> not dealing with terumoth and ma`aseroth).

This is actually an argument among the Rishonim (earlier scholars) as
brought down by the Aruch HaShulchan HeAsid (by R. Yechiel Michel
Epstein) in Hilchos Maaser Sheini 135:4.  The Rambam holds that there is
no Netah Revai outside of Israel (Hil. Maaser Sheini 9:1, Hil.
Maacholos Assuros 10:15).  But the Tosfos (he doesn't say where) and the
Rosh and the Tur (YD 294 - I don't have a Tur handy but I would guess
that he would tell you where the others are) hold that Netah Revai does
apply in Chutz La'Aretz (outside of Israel).

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: <toramada@...> (Shoshana L. Boublil)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 14:48:17 PST
Subject: RE: Standing/sitting for kiddush

From: <bsbank@...> (Barry S. Bank)
>Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...> in Vol.25, #83 wrote: 
> "... when a guest in someone else's home - I do as they do -- stand /
>sit / or both.  This seems socially most acceptable and courteous.
>On rare occasion I've had a guest in my home who has made it a point 
>to note that their minhag is different than mine and acted accordingly 
>(in my case, stood while I sat.)"
>I agree that this seems discourteous and would make one feel
>uncomfortable whether guest or host.
>In an attempt to avoid the discourtesy to my host and discomfort for
>both of us, I ask my host what his custom is.  If it's not the same as
>mine I generally will ask not to be yotseh on his Kiddush, but to recite
>Kiddush my own.  That way I follow his custom while he is reciting
>Kiddush and my own when I recite it.  I think this is a reasonably good

In my husband's family (Lybian originally) they have a custom "Ore'ach
Mekadesh Ve'Ba'al Habayit Botze'ah" - The guest makes Kiddush and the
host makes the blessing on the bread.  (I don't know the source!)

The rational is that in wishing to honor the guest with a Bracha, there
is a problem: if the guest blesses on the bread and divides it - he may
feel uncomfortable and give out small pieces - making him appear to be
stingy, or he may give out large pieces - making him appear to be free
with his host's food.  In both cases, the guest is trying to second
guess his host - and may feel uncomfortable.

Therefore, the guest is given the honor of the Kiddush, and the family
follows his custom of standing/sitting.  Then the host blesses on the
bread and divides it as he wishes.

Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: <toramada@...>


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:05:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Throwing Candy

In #87, Elanit Rothschild (<ezr0th@...>) writes:

> Good idea.  When my brother was bar-mitzvahed (they do it at bar
>  mitzvahs too!) the Rabbi and gabbai of my shul just covered the Sefer
>  Torah with a Talit and because of the risk of someone getting hurt from
>  being hit with hard candies, my mother bought those soft, mushy Sunkist
>  candies instead.

In our shul, there is a policy only to allow use of soft foods, such as the
Sunkist candies, Hershey's Kisses and Hugs or raisins.

Steven White


End of Volume 25 Issue 95