Volume 25 Number 97
                      Produced: Sun Feb  2 13:06:39 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Dikduk and Pronunciation
         [Tszvi Klugerman]
Ghiminy qriqets?
         [Joshua W. Burton]
Pronunciation (Sephardic)
         [Michael Shoshani]
Rashi Script
         [Marc Rosenbloom]
Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz
         [Ezriel Krumbein]
The REALLY Jewish Food Guide
         [Tszvi Klugerman]
The third Shabbos Mychel
         [Carl Singer]
Tikun Korim HeChadash "Simanim"
         [Carl Sherer]
Why The Disparity (Revisited!?)
         [Shoshana L. Boublil]
Why the Disparity ? Revisited Again
         [Carl Singer]
Why the disparity, revisted
         [Chana Luntz]


From: <Klugerman@...> (Tszvi Klugerman)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:45:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Dikduk and Pronunciation

I was wondering, now that many more people are becoming aware of the
intricasies of dikduk (grammar), does a person reading from the torah
have to be careful to read the dagesh chazak as a held letter or the
shva na as a vowel? Or do we view these as academic rules of grammar but
that have no bearing on the actual pronuncation?

Can a person not versed in dikduk read from the torah?

Should a person who is versed in dikduk but when concentrating on the
dikduk cannot read the torah smoothly, forego some of the dikduk to make
the reading more pleasing to the ear?

tszvi klugerman


From: Joshua W. Burton <jburton@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 21:08:51 -0600
Subject: Ghiminy qriqets?

Micha Berger <aishdas@...> writes:

> In the same issue, Joshua W. Burton <jburton@...> comments on a
> related topic -- using Teimani pronounciation in an attempt to be more
> accurate, or at least making every consanant distinct.
> : gimel/jimel	With dagesh, as in gelt; without, as in jelly
> I have a problem with assuming that "jimmel" is closer to the way the
> undotted letter was pronounced at Sinai.

I wasn't advocating, merely describing what I've heard.  Arabic has both
a ghayn, related to 'ayn (our ayin) and a jiim, related to Haa and Khaa
(our het and khaf).  There is no hard `g' in Arabic at all, though in
some dialects the qaf (as in Gaddhafi) is voiced and sounds like a back
`g' instead of a back `k'.

On phonetic grounds, I agree that g/gh/'ayn are a natural triplet, the
voiced analogues of k/kh/Haa, and that j, the voiced version of ch, is
a different animal altogether.  But neither Arabic nor Yemenite Hebrew
happens to match them up that way.  I make no claims about how we were
talking at Sinai (nor do my Teimani friends), but today, in one shul in
Rehovot, it's jimel, not ghimel.

``There are no things man was not meant  +------------------------------------+
to know. There are, perhaps, things man  | Joshua W. Burton     (847)677-3902 |
is too dumb to figure out, but that's a  |           <jburton@...>          |
different problem.'' -- Michael Kurland  +------------------------------------+


From: <shoshani@...> (Michael Shoshani)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:51:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Pronunciation (Sephardic)

This actually comments (from a Sephardic perspective) on separate
pronunciation threads within MJ v25 n74:

> From: <rturkel@...> (Rick Turkel)
> Les Train <ltrain@...> wrote in m.j 25#68:
> >The long vowel o in biblical hebrew is a dipthong (more correctly - was
> >a dipthong). This means it was originally pronounced as an o with a w
> >glide after - making it a long vowel, as in the Englishword "Coke", as
> >opposed to cock (short vowel).
> I'd like to see Les's references on this one.  I've been looking at the
> history of the Hebrew language on and off for longer than I care to
> admit, and I've never seen any reference to this.  It's true that a
> cholem (a vav with a dot above) was traditionally a long "o," but that
> doesn't necessitate a w-glide.  I believe that David Oratz
> <dovid@...> was correct when he wrote in the same issue:
> > Until the American Golus, it was
> >never pronounced that way, and it was only the pronunciation of the
> >American O that affected the pronunciation of the Cholom.

Sephardic countries never, to my knowledge, pronounced the Cholom as
a diphthong--no "oy", no "au".  I have encountered PLENTY of old Sephardic
men born in the Middle East and North Africa, none of whom spoke a word of
English, who pronounce the cholom with a distinct, pure "o" sound. The
vowels in Sephardit are generally kept "un-diphthonged"--they do not
glide.  If the reader is familiar with the correct pronunciation of
German, and how that system keeps its vowels similarly unglided, the sound
will become apparent.  Like saying the word "school" as a pure "skool",
and not "SKOO-wull".

> From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@...>
> Lon Eisenberg wrote:
> > I can appreciate the concept of pronunciation according to messorah
> > (tradition), but not when it is clearly incorrect:
> But where do you draw the line?  I once discovered a distinguished,
> rabbinic-looking gentleman in his late fifties, doing duty as baal koreh
> at an ashkenazic shul in B'nei B'rak.  He distinguished aleph from ayin,
> but also made pains to distinguish:
> 1) tet from taf (change in position of tongue against teeth)
> 2) vet from vav (vav is waw - the Yemenite vav)
> 3) chet from khaf (Sephardic/Yemenite chet)
> 4) kuf from kaf (kuf is deeper in the throat)
> 5) thaf from samech (Yemenite thaf)
> 6) daled from thaled (with/without dagesh - hard "th" as in "then")
> 7) gimmel from rimmel (with/without dagesh - another possibility is the
>    Yemenite jimmel. By the way, the "r" of rimmel is more gutteral; the "r"
>    of resh is rolled)
> His argument was simple: it cannot be that two different Hebrew letters
> are pronounced exactly the same.  By the way, the Sephardim also claim
> that Tsade is not pronounced "ts" but is closer to samech ("ts" is not a
> pure letter).

Unfortunately, a lot of younger Sephardim have had their pronunciations
"diluted" by Israeli pronunciations.  The fairly extensive list above
outlines some of the "ikkarim" of Sephardi pronunciation. Most teachers
who distinguish between "gimmel" and "ghimmel" pronounce the latter as a
guttural roll in the throat (a very soft `ayin), and not the Yemenite
"jimmel".  Saddi is like samech, but much "sharper".  (I have run into
one person who tried to distinguish between "sin" and "samech"; most
Sephardim pronounce those two the same.)

> From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
> The Sepharadi Minhag is not to say Sheheheyanu on Yom Tov, and to say it
> only at Kiddush. Only in Bagdad it was said but today that custom is not
> done.

There is one Sephardic "Sheheheyanu" minhag pretty much unknown outside
its community: Persians have the minhag of lifting the Sefer Torah and
reciting "Sheheheyanu" on the night of Yom Kippur, right after Kol
Nidre.  No other Sephardic group does this.


From: <JUDAHMOSHE@...> (Marc Rosenbloom)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:43:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Rashi Script

I was recently asked when was the script we associate with rashi first
used in sefarim? In fact did rashi create this typeface?
 Thanks in advance for any input.
Marc Rosenbloom


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:49:43 -0800
Subject: Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz

> From: Marcus Weinberger <marcus.weinberger@...>
>  Rav Hamburger lives in Bnei Braq not Toronto.  His phone no.is
> 03-570-0783.  His brother here in Toronto suggests you contact him 
> directly for the book.

 I have the book and I am sure you can get it from Eichler's here in
Flatbush - Brooklyn NY  1-800-883-4245


From: <Klugerman@...> (Tszvi Klugerman)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:45:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The REALLY Jewish Food Guide

<< Again I reccomend "the REALLY Jewish food guide" (London Beth Din) ,
 it is a wealth of information, not only about the Kashrut status of
 both supervised and unsupervised, but about the certification of
 factories and their products. >>

Does any body know where to get a copy?

tszvi klugerman


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 13:46:03 UT
Subject: The third Shabbos Mychel

How can we discuss the morphology and/or pronunciation Shale Sheedus
without discussing the chulent?   We bench rosh hodesh Adar I this Shabbos, so 
Purim isn't too far away.   

Chuna Avrum Singer


From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:27:15 +0200
Subject: Tikun Korim HeChadash "Simanim"

Our moderator writes regarding the aforementioned tikun:
> [Similar reply from: From: David Feiler <dfeiler@...> who
> identifies Eichler's in NY as a store that carries it for $24.50.
> Mod.] 

Yet another reason to encourage aliya.  Sforim here are cheaper.  I 
bought one for my son for NIS 55 - about $16.50 at today's exchange 

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: <toramada@...> (Shoshana L. Boublil)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 15:03:45 PST
Subject: RE: Why The Disparity (Revisited!?)

From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
>There was (and is) significant talk about the bone marrow and cheating
>topics.  In both cases we were told that it is a "Chilul Hashem". By
>contrast only 3 postings were offered on the terminal cancer patient
>desecrating the Sabbath.
>Why the disparity?
>Isn't it chilul hashem to ostracize and slander a dying person. Is it
>less of an embarassment to the Jewish community then say cheating on
>Why the disparity?

Personally, I find the case of the lady who drives to shul on Shabbat
because of her health to be a different matter than the previous two.

The reaction of the community was just a symptom of their basic problem:
First of all, halachically, there was no necessity for the lady to go to
shul at all.  Secondly, as she was terminally ill:
a. the community, or at least the Rabbi should have been aware of this.
b. the above should have known how precious the matter of davening with a 
minyan is to the lady, and they should have made an effort, if at all 
possible, to have a minyan come to her house, both as Bikur Cholim and to 
help her during her last days here.

So the reaction of the community appears to be fall-out from their basic 
insensitivity to the members of their own community.  I would say (note- I 
don't know the people involved, just their reported actions) that the Rabbi 
and the community have a lot of work ahead of them.

Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: <toramada@...>


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 13:44:23 UT
Subject: Why the Disparity ? Revisited Again

Dr. Hendel asks a most insightful question re: the difference in responses to 
three issues:

> 1) Should Jews donate bone marrow to gentiles
> 2) Why do Yeshiva students cheat 
> 3) A woman with terminal cancer started riding to synagogue (because she
> was too weak to walk)was ostracized by her community and had her
> Kashruth slandered  

My guess (I emphasize GUESS) is that it has nothing to do with the
relative importance or gravity of the issues but perhaps how wide-spread
the issues are or how close these issues came to goring their (my) ox.
Less metaphorically, a number of people (nearly everyone who B"H is in
good health) have to make decisions about bone marrow donations (do I /
don't I, etc.)  Similarly re: cheating (add also how this impacts others
re: grading on the curve, etc.) -- also both these issues have "public"
impact as they certainly have the potential for a wrong-footed approach
to what I'll loosely call Jewish public image.
 Being new to this list I didn't hear of item #3 until your message, but
although it may in many ways be the most significant of the three, it's
impact re: the above quantitative measures in relatively small.  The
community should probably better spend it's energies praying for her
recovery -- but then again I'm an opinionated (not so) old man.


From: Chana Luntz <heather@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:53:27 +0000
Subject: Why the disparity, revisted

I think there is a distinction.

While i can try and understand the distress of the woman in question,
and try and empathise with her plight - she has made a decision that I
think is different from that which I (I hope) would make and which
presumably would be made by the other people on this mailing list.

That is, no matter how miserable it made my shabbas, I assume (hope and
pray perhaps) that i would have the strength, should G-d forbid I ever
be in that situation, not to be mechalel shabbas.

Should the community have been more supportive, making it less likely
for this woman to be mechalel shabbas - Absolutely.

But, and this is where the difference comes in,  being mechallel shabbas
is in many ways *the* test that sets one apart from the frum community.

I think perhaps a better analogy is this: - we can all understand
somebody stealing because there is need at home.  It is clearly not the
same as stealing because one 'gets a kick out of it' - or because one
despises the individual one is stealing from, or because of normal
greed. Should the community move to try and ensure that such stealing
will never occur - and do some soul searching if it does - Absolutely.
But where we are dealing with such a case - there is always ambivalence
about the crime as well, and I think that that response is healthy.

Being mechalel shabbas is in halacha, a greater crime than theft.  The
community's response is similar to, to return to my analogy, that of
turning their back on the thief, rather than insuring the family was no
longer hungry and therefore that theft was no longer an option.

But it is not the same response as those other cases you bring above. In
the other cases, rather than turning their back on wrongdoers, the
question is rather of the communities' 'overacceptance' and perhaps lack
of ostracization where it may in fact be appropriate, thereby sending
messages that it is OK to cheat, or it is OK to distinguish between Jews
and Gentiles when faced with saving a life and thereby cause aiveh.

In that sense, it can be argued that the mail-jewish community has, in
the main, and in contrast to others, been rather consistant.



End of Volume 25 Issue 97