Volume 26 Number 65
                      Produced: Fri May 23  6:55:05 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

"Acting" out during Davening
         [Ezriel Krumbein]
Are Hummingbirds Kosher ?
         [Shlomo Godick]
Candlelighting time / Navy Sea-level calculations
         [Carl Singer]
Chanukah and Purim
         [Geoffrey Shisler]
Hummingbirds and Shiluach HaKahn
         [Yocheved Barenholtz]
I Love You Rosa
         [Susan Chambre]
Petition vs Grandeur in Prayer
         [Russell Hendel]
Search for Contact in Perth, Australia
         [Chavie Reich]
Sending away a mother bird
         [Isaac A. Zlochower]
Shehechiyanu and Going to Israel
         [Adina Gerver]
Sunset is affected by altitude
         [Akiva Miller]
Tallit - Minha
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Women speakers
         [Rachel Shamah]


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:24:10 -0700
Subject: "Acting" out during Davening

> Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d, ASA; rhendel @ mcs drexel edu
> I am curious if anyone knows sources for
> the above thoughts. I am also curious if there are other examples of
> "acting" outs in either the Torah reading or prayer.

There two other that come to mind. One is Kedusha where we rise on our
feet emulating the angels trying to raise themselves a level in the
praise of Hashem.  There is also a custom among the Chasidic minhag
sefard to turn their head whe they say vkorah zeh el zeh.  The other is
during tachanun when we say vanachnu lo nedah ma naaseh.  It is the
custom to get up.  I interpert this as an indication of our willingness
to do something.


From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@...>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:28:57 -0700
Subject: re: Are Hummingbirds Kosher ?

Mark Farzan wrote:

> A hummingbird has built a nest in our front yard (inside our porch
> light!!) and is already sitting on its two little eggs. From what I
> remember we can perform the mitzvah of Ghan Sippor once the chicks are
> born, but only if the bird is Kosher. Is Hummingbird Kosher? can we do
> the mitzvah ? Any other information would be greatly appreciated, as
> time is running out and the chicks will be born in the next few days.

A dove recently built a nest on a window sill of our house and laid an
egg.  We also inquired about the mitzvah of shiluah ha-ken, asking a
well-known posek in Haifa.  It turns out that the nest must be located
in an area which was hefker (ownerless) at the time of the building of
the nest (it is too late to be "mafkir" it now), and the posek told us
"ein lachem mitzvah".

Our son in yeshiva k'tana told us that his rebbe, when he took
possession of his apartment, immediately was mafkir all of the "nooks
and crannies" of the apartment where birds are likely to build nests, so
that in the eventuality that a bird actually built one, he would be able
to perform the mitzvah of shiluah ha-ken.  Eizohi derech tova sh'yidbak
ba ha-adam? ...  Rabbi Shimon omer: ha-roeh es ha-nolad! (Avos)

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick
Rechasim, Israel


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 97 20:38:20 UT
Subject: Candlelighting time / Navy Sea-level calculations

What does this do to our "calculations" of other daily zemanim -- that
is earliest / latest time for Tallis & T'fellin, Sh'ma, Havdalah, etc.
It's nice to have buffers when you're running late for "starting"
events.  It's problematic to have buffers for "ending" events.  In other
words if "actual sunset" is 20 minutes after the posted time in BoroPark
or Washington Heights, then the calculated end of Shabbos (for example)
based upon the luach (announced) sunset would be 20 minutes too early,
by any measure.  Do the various sh''itas really accommodate that much
(or any) calculation variance -- as opposed to variance brought about by
the varying length of the solar (sunrise to sunset) day brought about
because HaShem gave us seasons.


From: Geoffrey Shisler <geoffrey@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:08:11 +0100
Subject: Chanukah and Purim

My good friend, and author, Rabbi Dr Jeffrey Cohen, is seeking
information from members of exotic Jewish communities concerning details
of any special practices and customs they may have pertaining to
Chanukah and Purim.

He would be very grateful if any respondents would reply to him on

Many thanks
Rabbi Geoffrey Shisler
Bournemouth Hebrew Congregation


From: <babybarons@...> (Yocheved Barenholtz)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:55:05 -0400
Subject: Hummingbirds and Shiluach HaKahn

I don't know anything about the kashrus of hummingbirds.  However, I
believe that in order to fulfill the mitzva, the bird's nest must be on
public property.

Y. Barenholtz


From: <Smchambre@...> (Susan Chambre)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:01:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: I Love You Rosa

Susan Slusky's recollection of the plot leaves out one important
fact. the young man (who is about 13 when his brother dies) releases the
widow (halitzah) but, when he reaches manhood, they fall in love and
marry. This interesting twist on traditional obligations v. the power of
romantic love, is an important element in the story.

Susan Chambre


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:47:18 -0400
Subject: Petition vs Grandeur in Prayer

It seems that Jordan Wagner and I are finally in agreement about the
Ravs statement about Jewish vs Christian music[V26n59].  I just wanted
to supplement this agreement with some sources

As Jordan notes the Ravs comments that Jewish [Shmoneh Esray] music is
petionary is
	>>You've really said something about the trends in the text rather
	than in the music>>

What I would like to point out is that this is more than a "trend"--it
is a law: The Rambam, citing Gemarah's states in Prayer 9: 7

	>>..and similarly a person who prays should not have alot of
	praise (=granduer) 
	(e.g. he shouldn't say): The Almighty, the Great, The Warrior, The
	Awesome, The Strong, The Controller, The Brazen...     
	because it is not humanly possible to completely state all his praise>>

In fact the Talmud says that if Moses had not used the 4 attributes in
Dt 10:17 then we could not use them.

Although I have not heard explicitly about the Christian laws of prayer
it seems to me that Christians in their texts, choirs(vs solo chazans)
and music set as their goal the praise of G-d.

Let me put it another way (and I think this will further clarify the
agreement that started to evolve between Jordan and myself): The Rav
isn't claiming that Christian music/prayer/texts/choirs cannot >>move
you to tears>>(Jordan's own words) but rather he is claiming that
Christians have set as one of their prayer goals the magnification and
praise of G-d and that this particular goal (possibly among other goals)
in wrong according to Jewish thinking. Thus I think it would be clearer
if I further change my position and state that the Ravs comments were
not necessarily about TRENDS in the prayer / music but rather about
GOALS in the prayer / music. The main goal of Jewish Prayer is not for
us to Praise G-d but to be aware of our helplessness before Him.

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d.;ASA; rhendel @ mcs drexel edu


From: <BANK1@...> (Chavie Reich)
Date: Thu,  22 May 97 12:15 +0300
Subject: Search for Contact in Perth, Australia

I was wondering whether anybody on the Mail-Jewish listing is from
Perth, Australia and/or has a connection to anybody residing there. It
is very important that I contact somebody there. I can be reached at my
e-mail address: <BANK1@...> or at chavir@bankisrael.gov.il.
Any assistance at all - including the name of the orthodox rabbi would
be most appreciated and a big mitzva.

Kol tuv, Chavie Reich


From: Isaac A. Zlochower <zlochoia@...>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:05:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Sending away a mother bird

 Mark asked if there was a mitzvah of sending away a mother hummingbird
that had built a nest with eggs on his property.  He questions only
whether a hummingbird is a kosher species, since only a kosher species
falls under the rubrik of "kan tzippor".  I don't know if a hummingbird
is kosher.  It certainly is not a bird of prey, but we normally require
a long-standing tradition before regarding a specific aviary species as
 However, there is a more general question that can be raised about the
commandment to send away the mother bird from the eggs or nestlings.  Is
there a requirement of sending away the mother bird, if we have no
interest in the eggs or nestlings and have no intention of taking them? 
This question does not arise in the chapter in T. Bavli: Chulin dealing
with "kan tzippor", and is omitted, as well, by most halachic
authorities.  The author of the "Aruch Hashulchan", Rabbi Y.M. Epstein,
argues (Yoreh Deah, vol 2, Chap. 292; 3) that the mitzvah of "shiluach
hakan" remains; taking the eggs is optional.  However, the "Chasam
Sofer" (Rabbi Moshe Sofer), an important posek of the last century, took
exactly the opposite position, that it is forbidden to send away the
mother, if the offspring are not desired.  He based his view on the
"Ramban" who held that the reason for the requirement to send away the
mother bird is to prevent us from becoming cruel.  The "Chasam Sofer" is
quoted by Rabbi Shevel in the hebrew commentary of the Ramban, vol 2, p.
451 ("so that we shouldn't become cruel") as follows:

"Because of this reason, it is clear that if he doesn't need the
offspring, not only is he not required to send away the mother, but he
is also committing cruelty.  Then, instead of learning not to be cruel,
we,conversely, accustom ourselves to cruelty, to afflict a living
creature unnecessarily by chasing the mother from her offspring - and
afflicting living creatures is a Torah prohibition."

If you reflect on this matter, you will see the justice of the "Chasam
Sofer's" approach.  Did G-D really intend for us to shoo the mother bird
away and then abandon the nest so that the nestlings slowly starve, and
the unhatched offspring die for lack of warmth?  The Torah states (Deut
22: 6,7), "You may not take the mother together with the offspring. 
Send away the mother, and keep the offspring.."  It's a conditional
commandment; if you want the offspring, you must first shoo away the
mother.  If you don't want the offspring, then just walk away and leave
G-D's creatures alone.

Hoping for the day when all of G-D's creatures live in harmony,
Yitzchok Zlochower


From: <adina.gerver@...> (Adina Gerver)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:57:01 GMT
Subject: Shehechiyanu and Going to Israel

Is one allowed, permitted, or encouraged to say the bracha of
"shehechiyanu" upon arrival in Israel for the first time in one's life
or for the first time in a year or more?

I ask because I tutor a boy in elementary Judaic studies and there was a
question in his tefilla workbook about when one says "shehechiyanu."
Several choices were given. Some were obviously correct (when eating new
fruit, when sitting in the sukka on the first night of Sukkot) and one
was obviously incorrect (when going to shul on Shabbat) and then there
was one about arriving in Israel, and I wasn't sure. I also couldn't
think, off the top of my head, of where or how to look this up. Any

Adina Gerver


From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:31:28 -0500
Subject: Sunset is affected by altitude

In MJ 26:61, someone wrote about how sunset is affected by altitude:

>	1: One actually has a few minutes after posted times of sunset.
>The Navy (& halachic) people use a very conservative variable when computing
>sunsets in regards to elevation levels. Unless you are at or below sea
>you have about 7 minutes usually, with as much as 20 minutes (BoroPark and 
>Washington Heights times of actual sunset are an excellent example.)

This poster is making a serious error. From everything I've seen,
including the explanations in the book of Navy charts, the calculated
times of sunset are indeed for sea level. But more importantly, they are
for a *flat* surface.

If I am on a large ship in the middle of the ocean, and I am some
distance above sea level, then it is true that the sun will remain
visible even after it goes below the point where the horizon would be if
I had be swimming on the surface. In other words, at high altitudes,
sunset occurs later than the calculated and published times.

But the reverse is also true: If I am in a small boat at sea level, but
land is visible to my west, then the sun will set long *before* it
reaches the theoretical horizon. Only when all the land around me is at
the same altitude as I am, will the calculated times will be unaffected.

This subject has been discussed before, in Mail-Jewish volume 18, issues
26, 30, and 32. This is what I wrote back then in issue 45:

<<< The Igros Moshe of Rav Moshe Feinstein, Orach Chaim, volume 1, siman
97, begins like this: "Now, the place where you live is not far from New
York.  Nevertheless, sunset changes because of the mountain to the west,
and sunset appears about 20 minutes early. Even within your city, some
places change, according to their depth or according to their distance
from the mountain.  How should we judge the beginning and ending of
Shabbos and Yom Tov there?" This tshuva is almost two pages long, and I
am not capable of summarizing it here. Those who are interested, go for
it! >>>

Akiva Miller


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:32:28 +0300 (WET)
Subject: Tallit - Minha

There are many different minhagim. Night is not the time for Tallit
(except Yom Kippur). I think that those who do use a T. for Arvit(Maariv)
do so because it used to be said before dark or at least started before
dark. However, minhag Sefaradim is not to use T. for Minha & Arvit - even
the Shaliah Sibbur (Yom Kippur one does use T. for all 5 prayers).
Mekubalim that do things by Kabbalah put on T. & Teffilin every day for
Minha, Friday Minha & Kabbalat Shabbat only Tallit & finish before sunset,
and also for Shabbat Minha.


From: <Mywhey@...> (Rachel Shamah)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:16:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Women speakers

Does anyone know of sources either supporting or forbidding women from
delivering a eulogie (at a jewish funeral)?
Rachel   --   <Mywhey@...>


End of Volume 26 Issue 65