Volume 26 Number 70
                      Produced: Sun Jun  8  9:39:47 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

At the old ball game
         [Aaron D. Gross]
Burning Tablecloths on Shabbat
         [Ranon Katzoff]
Daf Yomi
         [eli turkel]
Davening times on a plane
         [Tzadik and Sheva Vanderhoof]
Hebrew words for Rose
         [Leslie Train]
Jewish Music Influences
         [Jordan Lee Wagner]
Kol isha
         [Ben Rothke]
Lag Be'omer
         [Yosey Goldstein]
Mikva questions
         [Rafi Stern]
Passport Photos
         [Eric W. Mack]
Pointing at the Torah
         [Hyman L. Schaffer]
Singing Pesukim
         [Shimmy Messing]
         [Dov Ettner]
Tallit - Minha
         [S.H. Schwartz]
Wedding Explanation
         [Seth Ness]


From: Aaron D. Gross <adg@...>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:50:52 -0700
Subject: Re: At the old ball game

>From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
> 2) The Cubs almost always sell out, and I couldn't get any good seats.
>However, given the teams record and the time of year, the stands were
>almost completly empty, so I moved down.  The park is certainly makpid
>the tickets, I would be forced to move.  The purchaser of those seats,
>if indeed they were sold, chose not to atttend.  It doesn't harm him if
>I sit in his empty seat.  What then is the issur?

How is this different from being a squatter?  If you owned a vacant
apartment building, do you have the right to insist that squatters
not inhabit your building?

---   Aaron D. Gross -- http://www.pobox.com/~adg  


From: Ranon Katzoff <katzoff@...>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:00:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Burning Tablecloths on Shabbat

On the question discussed here of whether and how to deal with a burning
tablecloth on shabbat, consider the words of the Mishna B'rura 334.73
(on Orach Chayim 334.26):
	[Good Source, seeing that it was from the introduction to the
Mishna Brura that this thread started from. Mod.]

"From here comes the "heter" to put out a fire *everywhere* (b'chol
makom), since it may happen that if one does not put it out there may be
*in that city* (sham ba'ir) someone who for reason of age or illness
cannot escape and the fire will overtake him." (my emphasis)

Ranon Katzof 


From: eli turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:23:13 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Daf Yomi

    Readers may be interested in a new dafyomi list. This includes a daf
discussion group, a page or so of insights on the daf, a background for
the daf and set of questions for review. What I find most exciting is
the possibility of asking questions on the daf.
 In order to join them, send an email message to:


The message should contain *nothing* other than one or all of the following 

sub daf-discuss Your Name
sub daf-insights Your Name
sub daf-background Your Name
sub daf-review Your Name
sub daf-questionofday Your Name

(Substitute your own first and last names for the words "Your Name" in the 
above messages.) Each of our mailing lists will deliver to you information 
on the daily Daf in 2-7 Daf installments, once or twice/week. A short 
description of the content of each list follows.

These lists are part of the Dafyomi Advancement Forum, founded by Rabbi 
Mordecai Kornfeld (http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/).
Rabbi Kornfeld has authored one of the most advanced parsha pages on the
internet for the last two years.

Gmar Tov,
Eli Turkel                    <turkel@...>


From: Tzadik and Sheva Vanderhoof <stvhoof@...>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:05:35 +0300
Subject: Davening times on a plane

The discussions of davening times reminded me of a very "le'maaseh"
shailoh that came up for me on a trip from Israel to the U.S. last year.

The plane left Israel late at night and sometime during the trip I
noticed that the sky was beginning to get light.  Seeing that they were
starting to serve breakfast, I decided to daven right away so that I'd
be able to eat.  I was in the middle of the brachos of Kria Shema, and
by this time the sun was actually visible out the window, when someone
interrupted my davening with the explanation that it was too early to
daven because, although the sun was visible from our very high altitude,
the point directly below the plane was in total darkness and it was
considered "night" for us.  I followed his advise and stopped davening
and also relied on the fact that it was "night" to allow myself to eat
breakfast, since one is allowed to start a meal before dawn.  Soon
afterwards, a minyan formed in the back of the plane for davening.
Because I was now nervous about the time issue, I did not join the
minyan.  Soon after this, the plane started descending, and sure enough
the sun actually "unrose", and it started getting darker again.  The
plane landed in the US in total darkness at about 4am local time.  I
later davened again from the beginning on the ground, after the sun

Does anyone know of any accepted tshuvas about the issues of davening
times when in a plane at a very high altitude?  I later heard from a
rabbi that he believes that minyanim are often formed in the plane at an
incorrect time and that one should not join these minyanim.

Incidentally on the way back, I noticed someone davening Shacharis about
2 hours before we landed in Israel (landing was around 5 pm).  Even
though he was still within the time limit for Shacharis had he still
been in New York, it was pretty clear that where the plane currently
was, the time for Shacharis had long since past, and it was actually
assur for him to daven Shacharis.  I didn't mention anything to the
person, though, not knowing the right way to go about it.

Any comments?


From: Leslie Train <ltrain@...>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:38:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hebrew words for Rose

Vered is from Old Persian; therefore no biblical reference.
Les Train


From: <JordanleeW@...> (Jordan Lee Wagner)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:29:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Jewish Music Influences

>  In discussion with Eli several other examples of Jewish inspired music
>  were noted (by both of us).
>  --The Kaddish and several other symphonic works of Leonard Bernstein

E.g., The Jeremiah Symphony, which is based on Haftarah chant.

>  This raises an interesting question:         
>  How many other serious symphonic musical works derive themes from Jewish
>  sources---Teamim, chazanuth, Biblical themes? Are there any books on
>  these? Perhaps other people out there are interested in compiling a list
>  of these.

There are many of these.  E.g., Mussourgsky.  E.g., Vaughn-Williams
fantasy on a Jewish Theme.  E.g., The Moldau (if you assume that
Salomoni Rossi Hebrao's setting was the original tune);.etc.  etc.

And if you include Jewish composers, then very many more.  Even in their
"non-Jewish" compositions, Jewish composers' sound worlds might have
been shaped (even unconsciously) by their background.  One might expect
to find something Jewish somewhere in Gustav Mahler, Arnold Schoenberg,
Jewish-dominated French opera (D.Milhaud, Mayerbeer, Offenbach (son of a
chazzn), J.HaLevy [e.g., Eleazar's aria in Act IV of "La Juive"],
S.Naumbourg,etc.); Anton Rubinstein, Kurt Weill (son of a chazzn),
Gershwin, Korngold, etc.  

You could probably collect a long list by inquiring at the
alt.music.jewish newsgroup.  (alternativly try contacting the Jewish
Music Institute at Hebrew College, Brookline MA.)


From: Ben Rothke <BRothke@...>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:31:55 -0400
Subject: Kol isha

Does anyone have a source as to at what age the issur of kol isha
(listening to a womens singing voice) commences?


From: Yosey Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:18:02 EDT
Subject: Lag Be'omer

[Inyanei De'yoma (issues of the day) although a year old. Mod.]

   Last Shabbos I was talking to my Rov and I asked him why does
Everybody say Lag Be'omer, even when they say Le'omer when they count?
He answered me that the main Yom Tov of Lag Be'omer stems from the fact
that it is Reb Shimon Ben Yochai's Yarzeit.
    The Gemmorah at the end of Moed Koton tells us that when we say
"good bye" to a living person one says LECH LESHOLOM, go to peace.
However when saying "good bye" to a deseased person one says LECH
BESHOLOM, Go IN peace.  (See the Maharsha for an explanation of what the
difference is)
   Therefore since it is Reb Shimon Ben Yochai's Yarzeit we use the term
Ba'Omer With a Bais, the same way we say lech Besholom.



From: Rafi Stern <rafistern@...>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:37:50 PDT
Subject: Mikva questions

When I discussed the issue of Friday afternoon Mikva opening with my
carpool we came up with three questions:
 1. Why do Sefardim go to Mikva earlier on Friday night than Ashkenazim?
Is this a related topic?
 2. Is there any essential difference between a woman going to Mikva on
the first day of her sheva' nikiim (the seven "clean" days) and going a
few hours before the end of the seventh day. Of course I am assuming
that there is no yichud (privacy with her husband) during the rest of
the week - an example could be a woman who is travelling on business and
is returning only after nightfall on the seventh day and wishes to
immerse before leaving for reasons of convenience.
 3. Why is there any need to ensure that there is no yichud between the
husband and wife when she returns early from the Mikva. If we "trust"
the couple to be in yichud during the time when she is nidda and now she
has gone to mikva (i.e.  she has shown that she is trying to do the
right thing), then why don't we trust them now? What do we mean anyway
by this "trust"? What sanction do we hold against someone who is not
careful about yichud in this situation, but there are no sexual
relations between the couple? Have they done some kind of Aveira?  Which

Rafi Stern
Tel:   (H)972-2-9919162  (W)972-3-6873312 
Email: <rafistern@...>             


From: <ce157@...> (Eric W. Mack)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:37:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Passport Photos

The photographer told my wife she had to remove her hat for a
passport photo.  Has anyone successfully objected to this?

Eric Mack    <ce157@...>


From: <HLSesq@...> (Hyman L. Schaffer)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:58:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Pointing at the Torah

According to Minhag Yisrael Torah by R. Yosef Lewy(which discusses
minhagim and their sources according to the numbering of Shulchan
Aruch--3vols. have appeared to date), the author searched the sources
and was unable to find a source for this custom.  He posits that it may
be related to the well-known statement of chazal that "zeh" in the Torah
indicates that Hashem showed Moses something with his finger, and that
it has carried over to the word "zos" as well.He also brings from Sefer
Chaim of R. Chaim Palgi a possible source from Medrash Rabba on the
verse in Shir Hashirim "vdiglo olai ahavah":
 in other peoples, the rule is that one who points at the likeness of
the king is sentenced to death (for disrespecting the king) but Jewish
children go to school and point at the name of hashem, to which Hashem
says "vdiglo olai ahava" (lit. his banner is upon me with love"), do not
read vdiglo, but rather "agodlo" hisfinger(or thumb) is upon me with
love.  From this loving pointing at the word of hashem might stem the
pointing at the Torah (admittedly not explaining why with the pinky). As
to why some hold the tzitzit, R. Lewy posits so that the pointing not be
with the naked finger (which might connote disrespect) or else to
connect the remembering of the tzitzit with that we are supposed to
remember, namely the mitzvot in the sefer Torah.


From: <shimms@...> (Shimmy Messing)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:43:57 EDT
Subject: Singing Pesukim

A while back, there was disscussion of singing dayeinu by the seder. It
was argued that it should not be sung so no words should be repeated. At
the seder at my house, someone brought up the issue of singing pesukim.
He said that there are some rebbeim in YU that don't sing pesukim at all
but rather hum along. Can anyone tell me what the problem with singing
pesukim and why, if it indeed shouldn't be done, do we so often.


From: <dovle@...> (Dov Ettner)
Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:33:23 +0300
Subject: Tallit

There are Yemenite Jews who wear a tallit for Mincha Erev Shabbat and
Kabalat Shabbat.


From: S.H. Schwartz <schwartz@...>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:55:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Tallit - Minha

From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
> I think that those who do use a T. for Arvit(Maariv) do so because it
> used to be said before dark or at least started before dark.

I was under the impression that it is for kavod haTzibbur.
This is analogous to those congregations where men don a
talit gadol for an aliyah -- k'riah, hagbah/g'lilah, or even p'ticha --
at mincha Shabbat afternoon.  It also explains why boys who
do not wear a talit gadol must don one for a morning aliyah.

Steven (Shimon) Schwartz
With Rebecca, Forest Hills, NY: <schwartz@...>
Computer Associates, Islandia, NY: <schwartz@...>


From: Seth Ness <ness@...>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:52:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wedding Explanation


does anyone have an explanation of the jewish wedding that can be handed
out to non-observant and non-jewish guests? If so could you email it to
me, if its ok with you that I use it? Thanks.

Seth L. Ness, Ph.D.                        Ness Gadol Hayah Sham


End of Volume 26 Issue 70