Volume 27 Number 07
                      Produced: Tue Oct  7  7:01:29 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Audio CD's
         [Saul Mashbaum]
CD Daf
         [Ezriel Krumbein]
Custom of Red String
         [Barry S. Bank]
Dancing Women
         [Yisrael Herczeg]
Dancing Women:Watching
         [Daniel Eidensohn]
Glass top stoves
         [Roni Grosz]
Ha-LHashem and C. D. Ginsburg  - An oxymoron
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Smelly Shofar
         [Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund]
Torah tapes
         [D. A. Schiffmann]
Volunteer PhotoShop expert needed - huge Mitzvah!
         [Eric Safern]
When One SHOULD look at Women Dancing
         [Russell Hendel]
Yovel and modern possekim
         [Troin Pierre]


From: Saul Mashbaum <mshalom@...>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 11:01:45 GMT-2
Subject: Audio CD's

Frederic H Rosenblatt wrote:

>Does anyone know of a source for Daf Yomi on audio CD?

In the fall issue of Jewish Action, the magazine of the Orthodox
Union, Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein surveys many software products
which relate to Jewish topics, produced by three major vendors:
Bar-Ilan, Davka, and DBS.
Among products he describes is a daf yomi CD produced by Bar-Ilan
which includes both the text of the daf and an audio shiur.
The article gives 800-925-6853 as the number for more information
on this product (and all other Bar-Ilan products).

Many mj readers will no doubt find this article of great interest.

This issue of Jewish Action also describes the OU web cite:

Saul Mashbaum


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 14:13:35 -0700
Subject: CD Daf

The Daf Yomi is available on CD from:

CD DAF C/O Torah Communications
1618 43 St
Brookly NY 11204   Phone # 718-436-4999

The audio version is 14 CDs ($99 all of Shas)

Thers is also a computer CD with the Tzuras HaDaf and links to
referenced dafim and rambam Shulchan Aruch etc.  Broshos only is $10.

and no I do not work for them.

Gmar Chatima Tova  to all


From: <bsbank@...> (Barry S. Bank)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:24:21 -0400
Subject: Custom of Red String

I always thought the custom of tying a red string to protect against a
tsarah she-lo tavo has its origin in the story of Rahab from the Book of
Joshua (2:18).

--Barry S. Bank


From: Yisrael Herczeg <yherczeg@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:02:12 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Dancing Women

Lon Eisenberg writes:
> I don't see any halakhic   
>distinction between dancing women and walking or seated women.  

I think the comparison to walking women is correct. A halachah that is not
that well known today is that one should avoid walking behind a woman who is
walking. (See Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 21:1 and the commentators there.)
It is clear from the context in which the Shulchan Aruch presents this
halachah, and from the remarks of the commentators (see, for example, Be'er
Hetev) that the reason for this is that seeing the movement of a walking
woman's body can be sexually stimulating. No less an authority than Rush
Limbaugh indicates that this holds true even in modern times. "I love the
women's movement," he writes, "especially when I am walking behind it" (The
Way Things Ought To Be, p. 146). I think it is obvious that the same holds
true for seeing dancing women.


From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 07:52:25 -0700
Subject: Dancing Women:Watching

>Lon Eisenberg commented:
>>Please site your source for stating that it is against halakha for men
>>to watch women dancing (assuming the women are properly dressed).  I
>>believe this is a new stringency being passed off as normative halakha.

I replied [in part]
>I found it difficult to understand on what basis someone might think
>that staring at women might be permitted.

Lon Eisenberg replied:
> I don't think anyone would dispute that it is prohibited to _stare_ to   
>derive sexual benefit.
> That was not what the issue is here.  Perhaps the word "watch" is   
>misleading.  Perhaps the word "see" would be better.  The point I was   
>trying to make was that the lack of a mehitza [seperator] should not mean  
>that the women are not allowed to dance with men being in the same room,   
>just like the lack of a mehitza on a bus doesn't cause a prohibition of   
>both sexes riding on the same bus, etc.  I don't see any halakhic   
>distinction between dancing women and walking or seated women.  If there   
>is one, please point it out to me.

 Lon Eisenberg's correction of his language from "Watch" to "see"
strongly alters the meaning of his position. This clarified position
seems to be a reiteration of the posting that started the thread. Should
there be a requirement of Mechitza when women dance? It is obvious from
the postings that there are legitimate authorities on both sides of the
issue. The question is whether today there is a need or benefit to being
more stringent than in the past and should this be the universal
practice? There are those of us who can understand that women dancing at
a chasuna [especially today's chasunas] are a different situation than
women on a bus - while others respectfully disagree.
 I don't think anyone, however, can argue that a mechitza _cannot_ be
required simply because it was not required in the past. The Rambam
[Introduction to Mishna Torah] clearly states "And every Beis Din
[Rabbinic Court] that existed after the time of the Talmud in every land
made restrictions and decrees and prescribed proper conduct for the
members of their land or for many countries - but these did not become
universal for all Jews because of the distances...Therefore one land can
not force another land to accept their practices..."

 The issues are 1) should [not can] the contemporary authorities require
mechitza 2) what to do when people coming from different populations
mix. Should the mechitza requirment be altered?

				Daniel Eidensohn
Gemar Chasima Tova


From: Roni Grosz <gro@...>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 17:50:10
Subject: Re: Glass top stoves

>From: Stuart Richler <stuart@...>
>Does anyone have any experience with the new glass top stoves? First of all
>how does one handle a shaboss/yom tov blech and secondly are they really
>glass or some other material. If they are made of some other material is
>there a problem with spillovers rendering the stove top milchig or fleishig?

1) On Yom Tov you don't need a blech. On Shabbos we don't use a blech
because it could ruin the stove top (it says so in the using
instructions), the heat building up would probably shatter it. Instead
we cover the heating elements with aluminium foil so you cannot see the
glowing elements. Our stovetop has a built in automatic shut-off after 3
hours of not touching any knob. This way we can only use it for Erev
Shabbos but it's extremely convenient, 3 hours is just the time between
candle lighting and the main course on Erev Shabbos. For Shabbos lunch
we have a small electric platta which is enough for the kugel(s) and an
electric crock-pot for tcholent (very advisable for technical reasons as
well for handling, for taste and for cleaning). For hot water we have an
Israeli made "MeiCham".  I know from discussions on other Jewish mailing
lists that some American stove tops have 12 hours shut-offs. For Shabbos
this does not help because it is too short. The bottom line of a lenghty
discussion there was that it is impossible to circumvent the automatic
security shut-off for Shobbos or Yom Tov whithout destroying the oven!!

2) They are of course not "real" glass lest you could hardly use it with
strong heat. They are a mixture of silicates (glass components) and
other stuff which makes it hard and heat/shock-resistant. As to
milchig/fleishig I cannot relate any experience since I have the
pleasure of having two stoves/stove tops.

Roni Grosz 


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:27:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Ha-LHashem and C. D. Ginsburg  - An oxymoron

Yisrael Dubitsky (mail-jewish Vol. 27 #06) says:

>>My question, however, refers to the Mesorah note by CD Ginsburg: he
 writes that "...ken le-Suarai heh le-.hud, le-Hashem le-.hud;
 le-Neharde`ai Hal le-.hud, Hashem le-.hud.  Ve-KHEN BE-SEFER `EZRA.
 uve-sefarim a.herim HalHashem mila .hada." >>

Christian David Ginsburg (1831-1914) converted to Christianity in 1846
and added the name Christian to his given name David. He developed a
good reputation as a biblical scholar, but I maintain that it is
improper to use him as a source for halachic discussion. Thus it is
probably proper to use the variation cited by him as they are based on
Jewish mauscripts which he collected - to the extend we can verify
them. But we cannot based the proper reading of the Torah based on a

Yisrael Dubitsky cited him as a source for the discusion, and I was
afraid that some readers might not be aware of the history behind the
name CD Ginsburg.

Kabdeihu vehashdeihu!

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund <sgutfreund@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:05:22 -0400
Subject: Smelly Shofar

Any advice on what to do about a smelly Shofar?

Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund                           <sgutfreund@...> 
GTE Laboratories,Waltham MA


From: D. A. Schiffmann <das1002@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:32:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Torah tapes

There is a large collection of Torah tapes available from Aish HaTorah
in the Old city of Jerusalem (I think you can rent as well as buy, but
check with them):

Aish HaTorah
1 Shvut Rd., Box 14149,
Old City, Jerusalem, 91141

Tel. (972-2) 285-666 

I'm not sure if this is the correct email address for queries about
the tape library, but you could try: <voices@...>

online audio lectures: http://www.aish.edu/realaudio/realaudio.htm

Also, Ohr Somayach has online audio lectures and tapes to buy:
online audio lectures: http://www.ohr.org.il/audio/index.htm

Jerusalem Echoes: Ohr Somayach International Audio Library Index

David Schiffmann


From: Eric Safern <eric@...>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 19:41:55 -0400
Subject: Volunteer PhotoShop expert needed - huge Mitzvah!

If anyone knows someone skilled at retouching and fixing photographic
images, please have them contact the moderator for complete information.

This is a one-time job - a few hours work, a huge mitzvah for a family
in real need.  No organizations are involved - you are not going to be
touching up a picture of a yeshiva building for a fund-raising brochure
:-) !!


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:34:59 -0400
Subject: When One SHOULD look at Women Dancing

There have been several recent statements about women dancing and
whether one can look at them and where possible sources are for the

I believe there are times when one SHOULD look at women dancing. I also
believe the postings so far have ignored a basic tension within halacha.


The Talmudic sources on the Holiday, the 15th of Av describe girls going
out (borrowing uniform dresses from each other) and dancing in the
vineyards for purposes of Shiduchim(getting married). Each group of
girls would give different reasons why the boys should pick them...
...lineage, beauty, and spiritual reasons. This is all explicit in the
talmud. The talmud explicitly states that some girls stated "Pick us for
our beauty". Furthermore only the ugly girls who did not have good
lineage stated "Marry for the sake of heaven".

I know of no commentator who deplores the activities of the girls

The requirement of modesty in halacha is well known.  There is in fact
a Biblical obligation to be holy (e.g. Lev 19:2).  

BUT..there is also a Biblical obligation to get married. 
You get married to someone who is attractive to you.
The Rambam explicitly states in the Laws of Forbidden Intercourse that
>>..if you are thinking about marrying somebody you should look them over
>>..to see if they are pleasing to you...provided you don't look lewdly.

I would suggest that the Rambam derived this from the EXPLICIT Biblical
advice of Moses to the Daughters of Tzlafchad (Nu 36:6) >>...Be wives
>>to (men who are) attractive (good looking)>>. Similar phrases occur
in Gen 3:6...I believe the phrase doesn't just mean "do what you want"
but rather "do what is pleasing".

THE POINT: There are two sides
The point of the above is that there are really two sides to modesty. On
the one hand there is a moral norm to be modest. On the other hand there
is an equal moral norm to marry someone physically attractive. The postings
so far have ignored explicit mention of this second side.  If a man wants
to see his potential future wife dancing then he *should* see her that way.
Elegant bodily coordination is as much a part of beauty as anything else.

In other words the issue should not be "Can we allow it ?  Can we
prohibit it?"  ..The issue is shouldn't we encourage it?

Of course halachah then comes in and creates a balance: (i) No lewd
looking (ii) Only for purposes of marriage etc.  (There *may* be a
possibility of arguing against dancing which emphasizes leg separation
since that is an issue in halahcha..but I don't know that we can
explictly prohibit this vs just give advice).

Russell Jay Hendel;Ph.d;ASA; rhendel @ mcs drexel edu


From: Troin Pierre <fk491839@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:09:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Yovel and modern possekim

I work on a thesis about the Yovel (the year of Jubilee) and the
implications on a political system. I wonder what modern possekim (or
other commentators) said about that aspect of the Yovel. I know, for
example, that R. Amiel Moshe Avigdor wrote very interesting things in
his book "Ethics and legality in Jewish Law". Does anyone know about
others ? Thank you very much for your help.


End of Volume 27 Issue 7