Volume 27 Number 16
                      Produced: Wed Oct 22  1:21:21 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Counseling and Halakhic Issues
         [Chaim Z. Shapiro]
Ezra, Hal-Adoshem
         [Mechy Frankel]
Kaddish D'Rabbanan after shiur on tape
         [Jay Kaplowitz]
Kaddish through a video feed (2)
         [Michael J Broyde, Steven M Oppenheimer]
Migdol & Magdil (3)
         [Steven M Oppenheimer, I. Harvey Poch, Ezriel Krumbein]
Paid time off for Yom Tov
         [Eric W. Mack]
Parents closer to Sinai
         [Shlomo Katz]
We evolve from Adam to Messiah!
         [Russell Hendel]


From: Chaim Z. Shapiro <cshapir@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:14:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Counseling and Halakhic Issues

[Note, I am allowing the following through to the list, to allow a
discussion of the issues surrounding being a religious therapist, a
topic I view as being of interest and relevant to the list. However, the
specific question of "What should I do" is one calling for a Psak
Halacha, and I strongly recommend that anyone in Chaim's position have
an extended conversation with whomever they view as their Halakhic
authority, which is not the list. Mod.]

	A large part of my graduate program consists of counseling
classes.  There are many shailos associated with counseling, yichud
being the most obvious (male therapist, female client or vice versa).
In order to avoid any yichud questions, I chose a male student as my
first client for my practice sessions.
	While these sessions are indeed practice, a certain decorum is
required.  The sessions are taped and graded, and the student therapist
is expected to conduct himself as a real therapist would.
	During my second of three sessions, my client told me a story
containing lashan hara about someone I know well.  This presented an
unfor-seen problem.  As the therapist, it would have been highly
inappropriate for me to reprimand the individual for his wrongdoing.
After all, in therapy he can say whatever he wants.  It was similarly
impossible for me, as a professional to show a look of disdain or
disapproval for his comments.
	As best as I could figure, the only appropriate course of action
was to listen to his lashan hara without comment (verbal or through body
language), and make sure that I didn't believe the story that he told
(which btw was not so easy as the client mentioned the story again in
our third and final session requiring that I be cognizant of it and its
	Any advice?  Did I handle the situation correctly? 


From: Mechy Frankel <FRANKEL@...>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:44:58 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Ezra, Hal-Adoshem

<<In MJ v27n06 Yisrael Dubitsky on the subject of Ha-LHashem wrote:
 ...Mesorah note by CD Ginsburg: he writes that "...  Ve-KHEN BE-SEFER
`EZRA.  uve-sefarim a.herim HalHashem mila .hada."  1) What is the
meaning of the reference to sefer `Ezra?>>

1.  There is no single ms that one might identify as "the" sefer ezra.
Rather we are witness to a variety of codices with that name, no doubt
applied at some point by locals who either believed it to be literally
true in the wake of the venerated status it had achieved by some point,
or as expressions of ultimate respect for a document thought to most
faithfully reflect Ezra's true work.  Thus, for example, Penkower's
recent book on the Keter Aram Tzovoh, (Bar Ilan U Press) which basically
describes a new source for the Keter, an early printed Chumosh with hand
corrections made directly from the Keter also records the "corrector's"
note that only Shimos-Divorim was so corrected while Bireishis (or most
of Bireishis, i forget) was actually corrected from a tiqun Ezra, which
Penkower is at pains to prove was a different and quite separate codex.
See the footnotes therein for other Ezra references.  There is
absolutely no a priori reason to connect Ginzburg's reference with this
or any other specific "ezra" document.

2.  In light of the above it is curious that the Aleppo locals
themselves in fact call the Ben Asher codex itself the sefer Ezra.  This
is attested to by Amnon Shamosh, an Aleppo native, in his recent work on
the Keter (containing the most extensive yet published retrospective on
the still partly mysterious circumstances of it's rescue from Syria) in
which verbatim quotations from various community figures refer to the
Ben Asher text as the sefer of Ezra.  It cannot be seriously imagined
that these local notables were unaware of the actual role of Ben Asher
in their most famous and colophoned possession.  Shamosh also attests
that referring to the Ben Asher codex as the sefer Ezra is an ancient
local tradition.  (Though perhaps not as far back as Penkower's
"corrector" since it would make his case for the existence of a separate
Ezra tiqun for Bireishis a bit more awkward.  come to think of it, why
use a separate codex for Bireishis if you have access to the best/ben
Asher for that also?)

A. Silberman also writes: 
<..the Encyclopedia refers to a work on Masorah called by one source
Tokhen Ezra which the author of the article identifies as being
identical with a work on Masorah entitled "Horayat ha-Qore" (The
Direction of the reader). Perhaps this is the reference noted.>

3.  The Tochen Ezra which the EJ does simply identify as a translation
of Horayat Ha'qoreih (actually of the second bowdlerized edition of HH.
see Ilan Eldar's "Torat Haqirioh Bamiqroh", Academy of the Hebrew
Language, 1994, for a fuller discussion as well as a chapter by chapter
discussion of HH) is unlikely to be Ginzburg's reference since it is not
a masoretic work after the fashion of the codices with masorah notes
which Ginzburg is obviously quoting, but rather a proto-grammer and
instruction book.  It does illustrate the potential of locals to ascribe
any venerable work to ezra.

C. Silverman
< 2) How do most ba`ale keri'ah lain this word(s)?  However, regarding
the second question.. I am a seasoned Baal Koreh and I came across an
interesting footnote in a Yemenite Tikkun printed by Yosef Hasid in
Jerusalem. He attatched a commentary called "Masoret Meduyekket" FOR
THIS PASUK,..G-d's name should be pronounced with a sheva under the
first letter. i.e. it should have an audible value as if the word stood
on its own.  "Hal is therefore read apart as a separate Teivah or

4.  Sounds also like my (possibly imperfect) memory of the Minchas
Shai's conclusion, i.e. hal-adoshem. Might as well go with the much
earlier and much more available moqore.

H/Ch/Kh/X/ag SomeiaH/Ch/Kh/X  
Mechy Frankel			H: (301) 593-3949
<frankel@...>		W: (703) 325-1277


From: Jay Kaplowitz <iii@...>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:19:26 GMT
Subject: Kaddish D'Rabbanan after shiur on tape

Carl Fischer asks about saying Amen etc. when hearing a Kaddish on
TV (or radio) in the presence of a minyan.

That raises another question:  If a minyan was listening to a shiur
(say a Daf Yomi shiur) on tape, would a Kaddish D'Rabbanan be said
when the shiur was over?

Jay Kaplowitz


From: Michael J Broyde <mbroyde@...>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:04:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Kaddish through a video feed

One writer asked about answering kadish to a real time recitial that is
"seen" through a video feed.  It appears to me that this issue is
addressed at some legnth by Rav Shlomo Z. Auerbach in his sefer "Minchat
Shlomo" where he insists that anything other than a direct "hearing"
does not count as "real" tefilla, and does not require an answer.

Although Rav Moshe rules that one can hear megilla through a microphone,
I am nearly certain that he would limit his psak to a case where one is
in the presence of the one who is reading.  In addition, his psak has
been subject to intense criticism by a variety of halachic authorities,
and one should hesitate to rely on it (at least that is my humble

Michael J. Broyde
Emory University School of Law
Atlanta, GA 30322
Voice: 404 727-7546; Fax 404 727-3374

From: <oppy2@...> (Steven M Oppenheimer)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:39:25 -0400
Subject: Kaddish through a video feed


In answer to Chain Shapiro's question regarding answering Amen to Kaddish
heard "real time".  This would probably be similar to hearing a blessing
over the telephone.  Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt"l ruled that one answers
Amen (see Igrot Moshe, O. Ch.,  Vol. 4, No. 91.4).  In addition, the
Talmud (T.B. Sukkah 51b) relates that the synagogue in Alexandria was so
large that people couldn't hear the chazan (see Rashi) and so a system of
flags was used to alert the people when to answer Amen.  It seems that
hearing the actual voice is not necessary to answer Amen.

[Similar responses also sent in by: 
Hillel E. Markowitz <hem@...>, Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@idt.net>

Steven Oppenheimer, D.D.S.


From: <oppy2@...> (Steven M Oppenheimer)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:39:25 -0400
Subject: Migdol & Magdil


Regarding Migdol, Magdil,   Otzar Hatefillot rules that during Chol
Ha'Moed one says Migdol as one would on Shabbat,  Yom Tov and Rosh
Chodesh.  Etz Yosef explains that King David, A"H composed both migdol
and magdil.  Magdil is found in Psalms which was composed before King
David was king and is therefore reserved for the less holy weekday. 
Migdol, found in Shmuel Bet 22:51,  was composed after David was king and
is, therefore, recited on the more holy days.  Chol Ha'Moed is included
in the group of holy days and the custom is to recite Migdol.

Of course, there are those who suggest that all this is a Ta'ut Soferim
(transcriptural error) and that the shin bet written after migdol
referred to Shmuel Bet and not Shabbat.  This approach would seem to
obviate the whole discussion.  

Whatever the reasoning, the custom is to say magdil weekdays and migdol
on Shabbat, Yom Tov Chol Ha'Moed and Rosh Chodesh.  As for Chanukah and
Purim, I've heard different opinions.  Anybody have any definitive
sources?  How about Shir Ha'Ma'alot  vs. Al Naharot Bavel?

Steven Oppenheimer, D.D.S.

From: I. Harvey Poch <af945@...>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:57:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Migdol & Magdil

Re: Zvi Goldberg's question about 'migdol' or 'magdil' on Chol Hamoed - a 
good rule of thumb is: If there is a musaf said on a particular day, such 
as Chol Hamoed, say 'migdol' in the bentching. This is even printed in at 
least one bentcher I have seen.

[Similar responses that we say migdol when there is musaf received from:
<NJGabbai@...>, Hillel E. Markowitz <hem@hrb.com>, Jay Kaplowitz

I. Harvey Poch  (:-)>

From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:22:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Migdol & Magdil

> <zg@...> (Zvi Goldberg) wrote:
>      While reciting Birchas Hamazon on Chol Hamoed (Succos or Pesach),
> does one say "magdil" or "migdol" ? All the bentchers I've seen say
> "migdol" is said only on Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, or Yom Tov. But if you
> say "yaaleh v'yavoh" and the special "harachaman" on Chol Hamoed, why
> not "migdol" ?

In the Sidur Derech Chaim Avodas Yisroel from Rav Shlomo Gansfried
published by Schulsinger Brothers 1971 it specifically includes Chol
Hamoed.  However in the Siddur Madanei Asher it only mentions Shabbos
and Yom Tov ( ie. not Rosh Chodesh).  The difference of opinions may
have to do with why you assume that the nusach should be switched. For a
few opinions see Nisiv Bina by Rav Yakovson 3 vol page 95.


From: <ce157@...> (Eric W. Mack)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:28:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Paid time off for Yom Tov

Seeking feedback on how other local and state government workers handle
Yom Tov.  I had been using a combination of paid sick time and paid
vacation time, but vayakam melech hadash [a new king took power] and I
have been informed that I may no longer use sick time.

Hag Sameah.
Eric Mack    <ce157@...>


From: Shlomo Katz <skatz@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:44:54 -0400
Subject: Parents closer to Sinai

Regarding the story about Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky ("Parents closer to
Sinai"), I personally verified it with Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky.  I do
forget whether he said it was on a plane or a train.


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:07:02 -0400
Subject: We evolve from Adam to Messiah!

There has been some discussion in the past month on the old issue of
whether the "older" generations were better off than the "newer"
generations. I gave a partial defense of "the newer are better" to which
Norman Rosenfeld retorted with a witty story which ends >>They descended
from the apes while we descend from Adam>>

The implication was that if you believe you descended from the apes then
it is better to be FAR away; if you believe you descended from Adam it
is better to be NEARER. I believe Norman's story (despite its folklorish
anectodal nature) correctly defends the "the older are better". However
I don't believe adequate clarification to "the newer are better" has
been given.

In a nutshell--I do believe I descended from Adam--but I nevertheless
believe I am evolving (with the rest of the world) to King Messiah. No
less an authority that the Midrash Rabbah on Gen 49 mentions how the
Messiah will show the world its errors in learning and behavior...in
short we are going/evolving TO a state that is better.

Norman will retort "What does that have to do with you and me" to which
I will respond "Everything". I append a list of "improvements" made by
the "newer" generation which have been more or less accepted by Israel.
I think this proves that the "newer" have something to contribute. It
also answers the questions posed by Rabbi/Dr Chaim Soloveitchick's
article and by Chana Luntz's posting...this list will show that we have
NOT lost something by being farther than our parents...rather we have
gained something ...we have gained an opportunity to contribute which
should make us proud.

Here are my examples:
 * Rebbi originally wrote the Mishnah only using Chapters (our present
paragraphs or mishnahs are a printers convenience). The Rambam
introduced Chapters and Paragraphs and the Shulchan Aruch introduced a
modern web like design in which each word "clicks" to a commentary and
footnote with glosses on other minhagim. This is improvement in
orginazational design.

 * King Solomon said he didn't understand Parah Adumah. Rabbi Samson
Raphael Hirsch gives a very detailed clear account which rests on only a
half dozen assumptions. His commentary is the culmination of several
centuries of attempted explanation. Many people consider Rav Hirsch's
explanation an improvement on King Solomon's ignorance (even if it is
not the total explanation).

 * The old notation of cantillations uses "almost vertical lines" for
BOTH Mayrchah and Tipchah. But the Korain Tenach uses curved lines which
prevent errors. This is clearly an improvement in an area where
"tradition" should be the only force (but it isn't)

 * The early authorities say almost nothing about electricity on
Shabbath.  Modern halachik-scientific authorities have created a rich
set of halachas AND technologies (e.g. Shabbath Phones) to deal with
electricity on Shabbos.

Whether or not you e.g. agree with Rav Hirsch or the Korain notation one
point is clear: These people have a sense of pride that they have
improved older generations and brought us one step closer to
Moshiach. They don't have the "inferiority complex" mentioned by Chana
in her posting...they rather have a sense of participation.

At this point I would like to suggest to Norman and Chana that the true
Jewish view requires looking equally both to the past and future. We
must respect tradition and yet also improve on it!!

I would be interested in other's point of view on this old and interesting

Finally...on a more amusing note...a famous gemarrah states: "The Rabbis
may know halachas but do they know anything about animals?? The point
here is that Apes are socially nice and could offer themselves as a
model for honor of parents.

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d.;ASA rhendel @ mcs drexel edu


End of Volume 27 Issue 16