Volume 28 Number 01
                      Produced: Mon Oct 26  7:33:45 1998

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Drinking the Wine from Sheva Brachot at Seuda Shelishit
         [Avi Feldblum]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:08:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia

Thanks to all of you who responded to my email on re-starting
mail-jewish. Having been away for a while, one forgets the possible
speed of response of people on the Internet. I was still receiving the
first batch of failed email addresses (after all this time there are
quite a few addresses that are no longer valid) and the first responses
from people all around the globe came in. There has been no problem
getting 40-50 positive responses, so here we are again! I'm really
enjoying hearing from many of you whom I've communicated with for a
number of years, as well as from many of the quieter members and newer
members of the list. To all, welcome back and thanks for welcoming me
back to your fold.

There were a few suggestions as to what other lists are out there
currently, and I'll try and summarize that in a posting in the next few

So, this is the opening note, I have an issue to discuss that I will put
in the next message, and I look forward to submissions from you all to
get this back in discussion.



From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:29:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Drinking the Wine from Sheva Brachot at Seuda Shelishit

This just came up at my shul this past weekend, and I'm also just
getting ready to start defining sources for a couple of hour-long
shiurim on the general topic, so I thought I'd throw this out to start
some discussion. This really might be more appropriate for mj-chaburah,
but I'll start it here. To try and start up more than one mj list at
once would not be smart, I think.

As many may know, when three or more people eat together, they are
required to form a "zimun", to bentch (say Birchat Hamazon)
together. There are significant sources that indicate that this should
be done over a cup of wine - Kos shel Beracha. During at least the last
100 years, doing it over wine has not always been the custom. However,
there are certain times when it is always done, such as when you have a
meal in honor of the bride and groom in the first week following the
wedding, during Sheva Berachot.

Another Halacha is that once shabbat is over, one is not allowed to eat
or drink until one makes Havdalah. If one is in the middle of Seudah
Shelishit when Shabbat ends, that is not a problem, one can continue
eating and drinking until one finishes the meal. This is usually defined
as when one says Birchat Hamazon.

What happens if one says Birchat Hamazon using a Kos shel Beracha, a cup
of wine? Do you drink this wine or not. In most places, the custom is
not to drink the wine. 

What is the rule if the meal is not just Seudah Shelishit, but also a
Sheva Berachot meal? Does anything change?

Here are some of my thoughts on the question. Some are based on sources
I looked up many years ago and need to find again to give this class, so
if anyone knows them off the top of their head, please feel free to send
them in.

The fundimental question is whether the wine following the saying of
Birchat Hamazon is associated with the meal just finished, or whether it
should be viewed as a new drinking of wine. Since most of us do not have
the custom to always use a cup of wine when we finish the meal, the
opinion has been to view the wine as a new drinking, and therefore since
Shabbat is over, needs to wait until after Havdalah. However, I question
if this is correct in the case of Sheva Berachot, as there from the
point one sits down, the groom and bride know that a kos shel beracha
will be used, and it seems likely that it should be associated with the
meal that is finishing.

An additional twist in this case, the groom is careful to always use a
cup of wine to say Birchat Hamazon over whenever there is a zimun? Would
that change matters even if this was not a case of Sheva Berachot? If
the answer might be yes, would there be a difference between Seudah
Shelishit in a private house and in the Shul?

Long enough (maybe even too long, but there is not a lot of recent
material in the queue :-) ) and I'll leave it now for some thought,
discussion and/or answers/sources.



End of Volume 28 Issue 1