Volume 28 Number 05
                      Produced: Thu Oct 29  6:36:32 1998

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Another Sheva Berachot question
         [Danny Schoemann]
Bowing in Karate (2)
         [Sheri & Seth Kadish, Avi Feldblum]
Brichas Kohanim
         [Ezriel Krumbein]
Eating before Kiddush and Havdalah
         [Akiva Miller]
Eating before Kiddush and Havdalah - Footnote
         [Ken Miller]
Electric Wheelchairs
         [Catherine S. Perel]
Interruptions within Brachot
         [Yisrael Medad]
Mazel Tov
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Service Dogs
         [Catherine S. Perel]
Sheva Berachot at Seudah Shelishit
         [Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes]
Singing as an Interrupion during Sheva Berachot
         [Jonathan Schwartz]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 06:32:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All, and thanks for the welcome back messages. I've heard from
over 300 of you who want mail-jewish back, so as you can see, I've
restarted it. It did not take long for the 40 replies to come in. There
were several requests for my passing on what resources other people had
found to the list. There were basically three main lists cited by

1) Avodah List (<avodah@...>) [Micha Berger and R. Yosef

2,3) Project Genesis: Torah-Forum  and  Beis-Midrash

I'm on the first list, and it is an active list, with many of the people
there familiar from mail-jewish. I know they forwarded my message coming
back to mail-jewish to their list, and I'll get a description of their
list to forward to mail-jewish.

The Projetc Genesis group of lists started a good number of years ago,
and I have been in communication with R. Menkin many times over the
years. I've only skimmed those lists at times in the past, but they
clearly have a lot of very good content.

The consensus of the email I received, even from people on these other
lists, was that there was still a clear place for mail-jewish. As such,
I will try and return to you all the high quality list that mail-jewish
has been in the past. I also see that I need not worry about having
enough material to choose from for including in the digests. You
discussions are already coming in at a significant volume.

Thanks again to all who have sent me email welcoming me back, and my
apologies to not have answered many of you who sent me email over the
last 6 months or so about what was happening.

Avi Feldblum


From: Danny Schoemann <Dannys@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:17:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Another Sheva Berachot question

In mail-jewish Vol. 28 #02, on 26 Oct 98, <rachim@...> (Rachi Messing) 

> Having finished Sheva Berachot for my sister and brother-in-law last
> night, we came up with a quick question.  The custom is that during
> the sixth bracha, the person making the bracha stops when he gets up
> to Asher Borah and Gila Reena, and everyone sings these parts out
> loud.  Then the mevoraich goes ahead and says them himself.  How are
> you allowed to pause in the middle of the bracha? Isn't it a hefsek?

While not an answer, we do find that Friday night the chazan stops in
the middle of a bracha for the congregation to say "Magen Avot".

Interestingly enough I recall seeing certain Rabbis who do not allow
themselves to be interrupted during the 6th bracha (though I can't
recall who they were).

For that matter in Yeshivat Pachad Yitzchak (when it was still in
Mattersdorf) I recall that they didn't stop Friday night - the chazan
went straight onto Magen Avot without stopping and the congregation
remained silent. For the record, the Kitzur in Siman 76:5 says "...and
the custom is to say WITH HIM (the chazan) Magen Avot" (my translation
and emphasis).

- Danny

Danny Schoemann
MIS & Setup Coordinator
Accent Software International, Ltd.
28 Pierre Koenig St., POB 53063
Jerusalem 91530 Israel
Tel +972-2-679-3723 Ext 273    
Fax +972-2-679-3731


From: Sheri & Seth Kadish <skadish@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 05:36:55 +0200
Subject: Bowing in Karate

	Before anything else, it is great to see Mail-Jewish back in
action.  Many thanks to Avi Feldblum.
	This list came back just in time for an unusual issue I was
recently confronted with, that some of you may be able to help with.
Does anyone know anything about the issue of bowing for observant Jews
who participate in a karate dojo?  The bowing consists of both knees on
the floor and falling forward with hands and face on the ground.  They
also say something in Japanese (I have no idea what).
	Many years ago I participated in the Torah Dojo at YU, but I
can't recollect anything about whether or not there was bowing.  What
would be the considerations in a dojo not run by religious Jews?  Does
the intent matter?  (From the little I've been told, the intent seems to
be out of respect for the sensai, not avoda zara.)  I'd love to hear
both from people who understand the halakha side of the issue and the
karate side, since I know next to nothing about either perspective on

Seth (Avi) Kadish

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 05:27:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bowing in Karate

Seth Kadish writes:
> 	Many years ago I participated in the Torah Dojo at YU, but I
> can't recollect anything about whether or not there was bowing.  What

Sensei (master) Sober discussed that issue at Toro Dojo and explained
that he kept the intent of the bowing custom - to show respect for the
master of the Dojo - while transforming it to avoid halachik issues. The
"bow" consisted of bringing the right hand in a fist to the left hand in
open palm, and then just inclining from the waist by about 10-20



From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:18:46 -0800
Subject: Brichas Kohanim

> From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 09:13:49 PST
> Subject: Quick Shatz - Late Kohanim
> We had a problem this past Shabbat.  The Shaliach Tzibur (Shatz) was
> fast and quick and so by the time the Kohanim entered the Shul he was
> already past Modim and into V'al Kulam but didn't yet say the Bracha.
> One Kohen got up but the others stopped and retreated.
> Since there are two "akirot" (removing one's feet in the direction of an
> action) - to wash and from the washing, were they right to not go up?
> Is there a specific Sefer rather than the paragraphs in the Mishneh
> Brurah that can help?

The sefer Tifilah Kihilchasah by Rav Yitchak Yakov Fuchs Chapter 14
paragraph 33 says that the akirat haraglayim must be in the direction of
the Duchan [with washed hands] not the sink. (brackets included by the
Tifilah Kihilchasah). In footnote 76 he quotes a suggestion from the
sefer Avney Yashpey given by Rav Chaim Maguri "If there is a long line
of Kohanim at the sink.  The Kohen should walk past the sink and then
walk back toward the Duchan in such a way that his walking to the sink
is now also walking toward the Duchan."

Kol Tov 


From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:46:23 -0500
Subject: Eating before Kiddush and Havdalah

Dr. Hendel has started an important sub-thread, seeking to understand
exactly why this problem exists, why it is that we do not eat until
Havdalah. Only after this issue is clarified can we apply it to the special
situation of Sheva B'rachos. [Just like we must first understand the idea of
benching with a cup in general, and only then can we apply it to benching
after Shalosh Seudos.]

However, I think Dr. Hendel erred in writing that <<< ...  why we don't eat
anything till we say havdalah: The reason is part of a general principle
that we should do Mitzvoth as quickly as possible. Similarly we don't eat
anything till e.g. we blow shofar or bench lulav or say sefirah etc. >>> He
also gave Reciting the Sh'ma as a similar example, and I would add Bedikas
Chometz, lighting Ner Chanuka, Reading the Megilla, and many many others.

However, I see Havdala - and Kiddush - in a very different category than all
those others. This is demonstrated by the fact that only a *meal* is
considered an impediment to the swift performance of those other mitzvos. A
light snack is allowed for all of them. (See footnote for exceptions.) To my
knowledge, Kiddush and Havdala are in an entirely different category, for
ALL eating and drinking is forbidden until these have been performed.
(Drinking plain water, for one who is very thirsty, is the only exception I
know of.)

I do not know *why* Kiddush and Havdalah differ from the others in this
regard, but it is very clear to me that they *are* different. It is not
unusal for the seforim to refer to them as a "heter achilah", for one may
not eat *any*thing until they've been done. For example, there are many
varying practices and opinions regarding what one might eat on Shabbos
morning before davening. But all those opinions agree that whatever
permission there might be, exists only *before* davening, because there is
not yet any mitzvah to say Kiddush; after davening eating is totally
forbidden until Kiddush.

Akiva Miller


From: Ken Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:02:21 -0500
Subject: Eating before Kiddush and Havdalah - Footnote

Ooops, I forgot to include my promised footnote. I wrote: <<< Only a *meal*
is considered an impediment to the swift performance of those other mitzvos.
A light snack is allowed for all of them. (See footnote for exceptions.) >>>

It is true that eating before Tekias Shofar is a much-debated topic. But
even a cursory examination of the material will show that this mitzvah is
basically like the others, in that a light snack (or Kiddush, in this case)
ought to be allowed. Those who are strict, hold that way for reasons
unrelated to Dr. Hendel's <<< the reason is to do mitzvoth as quickly as
possible >>>, such as the nature of the day as Yom Hadin rendering even a
snack to be inappropriate.

Another exception some may make is the nighttime Megillah reading, but I
feel that to be a mistaken perception on the part of many people. Many think
that Taanis Esther does not end until after the Megillah is read, but I have
not seen this anywhere. I believe that Taanis Esther ends at tzeis, like all
other fasts, and then eating a *meal* is prohibited until the Megillah is
read. If there would be any gap between Tzeis and Megillah (or between Tzeis
and Maariv, if you prefer), I see no *halachic* reason why a snack would be
forbidden in between. [Although I can certainly see a "public policy issue",
where the shul having a break-fast prior to Maariv would be contrary to
smooth operations.]

Akiva Miller


From: Catherine S. Perel <perel@...>
Subject: Electric Wheelchairs

Does anyone know how the switch must be changed in order to use an electric
wheelchair on Shabbos and yom tov?  If not, do you know a source I can

Catherine S. Perel


From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 98 12:15:06 PST
Subject: Interruptions within Brachot

Re 28:02 and question of mafsek in the Bracha - my niece just got
married and the mesader was Yehoshya Witt of Carlebach fame.  Besides
everything else, the reciting of the sheva brachot took maybe an hour
with all the singing, dancing, etc.  I don't know about the matter of
interruption, but many could have used chairs.

Yisrael Medad


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:41:15 EST
Subject: Mazel Tov

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Avi and Mail Jewish
back.  I had come to look forward to these discussions, and they were
sorely missed.  I would also like to take this opportunity to announce
my recent marriage to the former Faye Gantz of North Hollywood, Ca 

Chaim Shapiro


From: Catherine S. Perel <perel@...>
Subject: Service Dogs

I have heard or read of many rulings on whether a service animal is
permitted in schul.  Does anyone know where I can look for discussions
on this topic?  Does the type of service dog (guide, assistance,
hearing, seizure alert/response) matter?  Does an eruv matter?

Catherine S. Perel


From: <sthoenna@...> (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:21:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Sheva Berachot at Seudah Shelishit

Welcome back and thanks!  I've learned a lot by lurking
on mail-jewish.

In his book "The Radiance of Shabbos" R. Simcha Bunim Cohen remarks that
the cup for Sheva Brochos is an exception to the prohibition on eating
or drinking before havdalah.  If I'm reading the footnote right (I'm
hebrew-challenged) he cites Igros Moshe Orech Chaim Helek 4 Siman 69,
Tzitz Eliezer Helek 10 Siman 45, plus additional references.

[Thanks for the references, I'll try and look up what I can find over
Shabbat. _ Mod.]

Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes


From: Jonathan Schwartz <jschwrtz@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:15:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Singing as an Interrupion during Sheva Berachot

I believe that the issue is debated by the Rivivot Ephraim ( Rabbi
Ephraim Greenblatt of Memphis, a talmid of Rav Moshe Feinstein, in vol
6).  There he states that the singing is of the same issue as the
berachot and thus does not constitute a hefsek.


End of Volume 28 Issue 5