Volume 28 Number 25
                      Produced: Sun Nov 15  8:52:12 1998

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Announcing Time of the Molad
         [Ira Walfish]
Avraham and Ishmael
         [Mechael Kanovsky]
Har Tzvi
         [Carl M. Sherer]
Hunger Strike
         [Yisrael Medad]
Hunger Strikes
         [Ezra Rosenfeld]
K'dusha: Bowing at "V'Kara Ze El Ze V'Amar"
         [David Ziants]
         [Gershon Dubin]
         [Shlomo Godick]
Marheshvan vs. Hesvan (3)
         [Moshe Rappoport, Michael Poppers, Daniel Katsman]
Second and third person in Blessings
         [Arnie or Linda Kuzmack]
Visiting Cemeteries
         [Irving Green]
         [Richard Wolpoe]


From: <Ira.Walfish@...> (Ira Walfish)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:18:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Announcing Time of the Molad

A friend recently suggested that the time of the molad to be announced
during Shabbat Mevorchim must be 6 hours more than that shown in the
Ezras Torah calendar. Would he be correct?

Ira Walfish

[I think this may possibly related to the time of moled being listed in
Jerusalem local time. I think that the definition of the moled is the
moled at Jerusalem, in Jerusalem local time, so what is announced is
correct. The problem is that many people do not know what the "moled"
is, so they think you are announcing a local time. I have heard gabaim
explicitly say "Jerusalem local time" in the announcement to make it
clear. Of course, if I am off base, I expect to hear from many of you
out there :-) . Mod]


From: Mechael Kanovsky <kanovsky@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:44:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Avraham and Ishmael

My nine year old son asked me a question dealing with Avraham and Yishmael
that I had no adequate answer to. His question was that Rashi says that the
two "ne'arim" that accompanied Avraham and Yitzchak on the way to the akeida
were Eliezer and Yishmael. But just previously Avraham banished his son
Yishmael and also if you look at Rashi in the above mentioned parsha he
indicates that Avraham hated Yishmael for leaving the ways of the torah. The
only answer that I had was that Yishmael did teshuva but that does not fit
with the all that say that Yishmael did teshuva only at the end of Avrahams
life (beseiva tova and the fact that when it mentions that both Yitzchak and
Yishmael buried Avraham is where we learn that Yishmael did teshuva). If
anyone has any answer please let me know, I hate getting stumped by a nine
year old :-) .
 Mechael Kanovsky


From: Carl M. Sherer <carl@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:04:44 +0200
Subject: Har Tzvi

Joshua M Hoexter writes:

> The Leket Tziunim Vhaoros says "And therefore it is 'mutar'
> [permissible] for a Cohen to say when he's walking after Birkas Cohanim
> 'baruchim tihiyu' and there's no 'bal tosif' - and see Shaalos uTshuvos
> Harei Tzvi Chelek Orach Chayim Siman 62."
> I don't know, but is it possible that Harei Tzvi is Rav Tzvi Pesach
> Frank?

Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank zt"l, formerly the Rav Roshi of Yerushalayim, is
the author of Shaalos u'Tshuvos *Har* Tzvi.

-- Carl M. Sherer
mailto:<carl@...>  or mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son Baruch Yosef ben
Adina Batya.  Thank you very much.


From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:26:28 +0200
Subject: Hunger Strike

I will speak to him but a quick response for now: nowadays, hunger
strikes are not dangerous taking into consideration that doctors are
present at various times; no unhealthy person is allowed; it is a hunger
strike - therefore they drink juice, etc.; it isn't a hunger strike a la
Bobby Sands from Ireland who starved himself to death.  And since
fasting is permitted as a means of "inui", that is, a form of "torture",
I would presume that a hunger strike would be permissible if it is for a
significant cause such as preventing a situation whereby, in giving over
territory one brings closer danger (without going too much into the
political), that is, what some Rabbis would define as pikuach nefesh.
After all, according to the Ramban, there is a mitzvah to fight for the
conquest of the Land of Israel which for certain puts one into an
extremely dangerous and life-threatening situation.
and of course, we can see that hunger-striking is Biblical,
as for instance Chapter 4 of Esther, who fasts (both liquids
and food) for three days to save her people as do all

 To complete my response of the issue whether hunger-striking is
permissable even if one would think that it could be considered as
harming oneself, I asked Rav Elchanan Bin-Nun and his concise reply
(while standing outside the grocery store here is Shiloh) was:
 a) the concept of "danger" as a result of a hunger strike undertaken
with proper medical superversion is so negligible as to be not
 b) as one is commanded to endanger oneself on behalf of Eretz-Yisrael,
even to the extent of engaging in war and therefore possibly being
killed, then a hunger strike is surely permitted if one considers that
way as helpful.

Yisrael Medad


From: Ezra Rosenfeld <zomet@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:09:03 +0000
Subject: Hunger Strikes

1. The fifth volume of "Crossroads", to be published early this winter
by Zomet contains two articles about the Halachic permissibility of
hunger strikes, one which prohibits and one which permits. The articles
deal with the various reasons for hunger strikes (i.e. to overturn a
divive degree, a mortal decree), the conditions under which it would be
permissible (drinking, eating at night), who may fast etc. etc.

Ezra Rosenfeld


From: David Ziants <davidz@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:24:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: K'dusha: Bowing at "V'Kara Ze El Ze V'Amar"

Assuming the tzibur *does* say the introduction to the k'dusha
(n'kadesh, nakdishach, etc.) before the sha"tz - and this is what I have
always seen to happen in practice both in the UK and here in Israel - I
wish to side onto another question.

There is the custom by almost everyone to bow three times at the words:
"V'kara ze el ze v'amar", to the left then to the right and then to the
middle; or the Sephardim (Eidot HaMizrach) seem to bow to the right

My question is: What is the source for the bowing here?

I have seen the source for bowing thrice at "oseh shalom bimromav..."
after taking three steps back at the end of the Sh'moneh Esrey.
This is stated in the Shulchan Aruch, Orech Chayim Siman 123:1 ,
and is explained that this is the way a servant leaves his master.

This reasoning doesn't explain bowing at "v'kara ze...", and I can't
find any mention at all of bowing at this point in the Shulchan Aruch,

{The Mishneh B'rurah explains that the bow is to the left first, because
this is the right hand (more important) side of the sh'china . Then why
do the sephardim do this to the right first at "v'kara ze..."?}

Although I don't seem to be as steeped in learning as many people in
this forum, I do look forward to some scholarly answers, if there are

Thanks in advance.
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:07:46 -0500
Subject: Kedusha

>The geonim write that even the paragraphs between the p'sukim are 
>intended only for the chazzan, leaving the tzibur to say only the

	The part that the tzibur [Congregation - Mod] says, "kadosh
kadosh, etc." is not a pasuk but the end of a pasuk that starts "vekara
ze el ze ve'amar".  Should those who don't say the introductory
paragraph (or those who do and either came late or are at a place where
they are not allowed to interrupt except for the bare minimums) start
from there?
	Related question: when we say in the Yom Kippur avodah about the
Kohen Gadol saying the pasuk "ki bayom hazeh", we leave off the last
word of the pasuk.  Has anyone seen anything about finishing off the
pasuk silently (before the bowing)?



From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:39:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Marcheshvan

David Glasner ?<DGLASNER@...>?  wrote:

>> My impression is that the original Babylonian name for the eighth
month in Marheshvan and that older Rabbinic references to the month
always include the "mar." >>

There was recently a discussion about this in H-JUDAIC.  Apparently
Marcheshvan literally means "eighth month" in the Babylonian tongue
("shvan" being similar to "shmoneh", with the V of the root SVN
replacing the M in the Hebrew root SMN.  The word marche also appears to
have a etymological connection with the Hebrew yerach (month)).

Shlomo  Godick


From: <mer@...> (Moshe Rappoport)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:26:20 +0100
Subject: Marheshvan vs. Hesvan

A Chassidic explanation of Mar points to a second meaning of mar as in
the phrase Mar midli - drops from a bucket. This represents the blessing
for rain which we begin praying for in Eretz Yisroel in the month of

Moshe Rappoport

From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:29:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Marheshvan vs. Hesvan

David Glasner wrote:
> Any other interesting details about the etymology of
> Marhesvan/Heshvan?

Rather than repeat what's online, I refer you to Judith Romney Wegner's
Nov. 1997 posting (to soc.genealogy.jewish, entitled "Re: tombstone
inscriptions"; I FWDed it to soc.culture.jewish under the title '[Fwd from
SGJ:] meaning of "MarCheshvan"') and the ensuing SCJ thread.  If anyone
can't access this thread (e.g. via DejaNews), I'll be happy to, as a start,
e-mail him what's in my mailbox and/or post her original comments to this

All the best from
Michael Poppers =*=  http://eCode.com/?MPoppers%40work

From: <hannah.k@...> (Daniel Katsman)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:56:40 GMT
Subject: Marheshvan vs. Hesvan

The Babylonian name for the eighth (or second) month is "Shavan".  The
word MRH, or equivalentlyly WRH or YRH, preceding Shavan, means "moon"
or "month" and is cognate to the Hebrew "yare'ah".  "Marheshvan", and for
that matter "Heshvan" as well, are therefore corruptions of "MRH Shavan"
or "month of Shavan". I heard this from my father 20 years ago in the name
of Rabbi  Michael  Bernstein and it was confirmed to me by his son <who
taught me in YU and whom I have seen as a contributor to this forum).  Much
time has passed since then and I hope I got all the details right.  I
recall seeing English references to Shavan in the anthology The Ancient
Near East in Texts.         

Daniel Katsman


From: Arnie or Linda Kuzmack <kuzmack@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:54:20 -0500
Subject: Second and third person in Blessings

An exception to the usual case of blessings ending in the third person is
"...hatov shimkha ul'kha naeh l'hodot"

Kol tuv,
Arnie or Linda Kuzmack


From: Irving Green <scanrom@...>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:09:54 +0500
Subject: Visiting Cemeteries

I recently inquired regarding visiting the grave of my grandfather in 
England. No one has been to the grave in more than 40 years and I 
personally never visited it. The question was raised as to whether or not 
I was permitted to visit the grave since I had not personally been there 
in 50 years. Does anyone know the sources for this and can someone lead 
me to any psak on this.

Isser Green
Cedarhurst, N.Y.


From: <richard_wolpoe@...> (Richard Wolpoe)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:46:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Vitamins 

1) Vitamins that are chewed or consumed as a liquid elixir would need to
meet Kashrus standards.  This is due to the fact that one consumes then
in the same manner as consuming any regular food.

2) Vitamins that are swallowed whole (whether table or capsule) are not
strictly speaking being eaten; that is they have no taste to the
palette.  A) Some supplements might contain definite non-kosher
substances, e.g. liver.  Even though it is being consumed without
tasting, it still might have halachic problems.  B) Most Vitamins do not
have any definite unkosher elements, rather they have doubtful or
ambiguous elements that might require supervision were they actual food.
However, since they are not food (in the sense that they are consumed by
being swallowed whole) one maybe lenient)

Furthermore there are 2 more mitigating factors towards leniency: 

1) Even if they come in contact with the palette, they have a "negative"
taste.  This principle is called nosein taam lifgam and deals with
mixtures and compounds.  Therefore, a compound containing kosher and
unkosher ingredients, if the taste is degraded by the addition of the
nonkosher ingredient would be a factor in being lenient.

2)  Mixtures have 2 other lenient factors:
A) One is not allowed to mix definitely unkosher ingredients in order to
nullify them.  however, one is permitted to mix questionable ingredients
in order to nullify them
B) there is the possibility that while a Jew may not nullify something
unkosher, this rule does not apply to a non-Jew; and if the
nullification takes place prior to the purchase by the Jew, the
nullification can be considered as legitimate (so far as one is able to
rely on any mixture)

Passover has the additional provision of prohibiting any benefit, and is
not strictly a function of one's palette.  E.G. pet food needs to be
free of leavening on Passover, even though it might be quite unfit for
human consumption since the criteria is not a factor of human taste but
one of deriving benefit.

Yom Kippur has the criteria or restoring one's clarity of mind.  Any
nutrient, even an unpalatable one, might be prohibited because its
consumption might remove the required soul Affliction.  So food that is
either tasteless or swallowed whole still might be prohibited due to its
restorative powers even though it bypasses the palette.

Rich Wolpoe


End of Volume 28 Issue 25