Volume 29 Number 05
                 Produced: Wed Jul 14  6:48:50 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants (6)
         [Lon Eisenberg, Norman Tuttle, Michael & Bonnie Rogovin, Roni
Grosz, Steven Pudell, Isaac A Zlochower]
Coming Late to Shul (2)
         [Joseph Geretz, Todd Davidovits]
Old Wine in Tamuz
         [Yitzchok Zirkind]
Shir HaShirim and Megillas Esther
         [Joseph Geretz]
Shofar blowing at Musaf
         [Gershon Dubin]


From: Linda <Fauveism@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:41:49 EDT
Subject: Re: Agunot

The Jewish Press is NY is a great place to start. THere is an Aguna
section with many organizations and resources. Another place, for legal
writings on Jewish law and divorce, check out www.jlaw.com. Their
article section is very comprehensive, and covers everything from the
Aivtzar v. Avitzar case, to the NY state Get Bill and its ramifications.
 Good luck,


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:54:07 -0400
Subject: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

"Anonymous" wrote about being uncomfortable going into a non-kosher
restaurant for business purposes wearing his yarmulka.

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with doing so.  It's nice how people say
"But what about marith `ayin [the way it appears]", but, as far as I
know, we have no halakhic source (in the Talmud) indicating that such an
act comes under the prohibition of marith `ayin, and you can't make up
your own.  Even if from a "sensitivity" point of view this may seem
uncomfortable, I would guess that anyone viewing the situation would
clearly see it's a business-related situation.  If I haven't yet been
convincing enough that "anonymous" need not feel uncomfortable, I'll
offer a final solution: Wear a cap.

From: Norman Tuttle <TUTTLE@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:19:54 -0400
Subject: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

Relevant to the anonymous poster whose company holds business meeting in
non-Kosher establishments:

 Being he works in Manhattan, where there are plenty of Kosher
restaurants, why can't he simply insist only to be taken to a Kosher
one?  The best objection he should have given is that he doesn't want to
be seen in a non-Kosher restaurant.
 At any rate, if one has no choice, one should not give any appearance
of impropriety (or lack of piety) or the false impression that it is a
Kosher restaurant by wearing a yarmulke in such a non-Kosher
establishment.  It may be possible to preserve his customary
head-covering tradition by instead wearing a tupee or baseball cap (one
could justify this lack of decorum by saying it was the only way he felt
comfortable entering a non-Kosher restaurant).  In general, he could
order a drink of water/seltzer or some Kosher soda brand (even in a
glass, the washing should suffice for Kashruth purposes at least
B'dieved [ex-post-facto], which is the same classification of his being
in the restaurant).  Even Kosher-type foods should not be purchased;
however, because of at least concerns with handling or warming (unless
he has the opportunity to be able to purchase unheated Kosher-certified
food in its original packaging, such as candy and the like).

Nosson Tuttle

From: Michael & Bonnie Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:15:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

An anonymous writer asks about wearing/removing a kippah when joining
co-workers at a meal in a non-kosher restaurant and what is permissible
to eat.  Obviously, the writer should consult with his LOR since there
as many opinions on this subject as there are rabbis.  That being said,
I have faced this problem repeatedly and have concluded that removing a
kippah is more problematic than keeping it on, since it could be
interpreted to suggest that one is doing something that is prohibited
and therefore it is better not to be seen in a kippah.  Since I presume
that the writer does not intend to violate any kashrut rules, then I
would suggest that if he wears his kippah it would be clear to everyone
that he was there on business and it could be presumed that he was
keeping kosher.  Someone who knew him to always wear a kippah and saw
him without one might assume the opposite.  But the laws of maarit eyin
are beyond the scope of this reply.

As to what to eat, again consult one LOR, but the common practice would
seem to allow water (without lemon or lime if one considers these
harif), fruit (so long as it is verified that they do not add liquor to
the salad as is done in finer establishments - n.b. bananas are almost
always soaked in lemon juice, probably from a bottle though), soda that
is clearly kosher, coffee and regular tea. Sometimes I have been able to
establish the source of other things like yogurt, cottage cheese, salad
dressings to determine if they are kosher as well.  Many nicer
restaurants, particularly in NYC, will arrange for a kosher airline
style dinner or will heat up one you bring. Some places actually stock
them. But many do not have plasticware so bring your own for any hot
food.  If you are in downtown Manhattan, there are really no decent
places to eat with colleagues. In midtown, there are enough choices that
you should be able to get them to go kosher, at least once in a while.


From: Roni Grosz <roni.grosz@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:38:33 +0200
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

I heard a psak that one is not allowed to enter a non-kosher restaurant
even if only in order to use the bathroom. Kovod HaBrios is not strong
enough in this regard. Entering an eating place with a yarmulka or
looking Jewish in general (combination of beard, Payos, Zizis, dress
style) ) will convey the notion that this is a kosher place (especially
to unassuming Jewish bystander).  Maybe by taking off your kippah you
can trigger a discussion about the why's and how's and can bring your
co-workers to go to a kosher place.

> FYI, I work in New York City.

FYI, I live in a city with no kosher restaurants.

> In addition, is there anything that I'm permitted to order in this type
> of a place, such as a can of soda? How about the ice water that these
> places always serve?

That's most probably no problem. If the owner is Jewish, you can't use
glass oder metall ustensils (not getoyvelt), there may be a problem with
Chometz she'avar haPessach alav (for beer for example) and, if produce
from Eretz Yisroel is used, problems of maaser, trumos, shmitta,
etc. (for example the slice of lemon that comes with your drink).

Roni Grosz

From: Steven Pudell <Gmachine9@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:13:23 EDT
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

Here is a non-halakhic response but rather a personal one.  (Not exactly
ma'aseh rav but...)

I have encountered the situation described many times.  It is always
good advice to receive guidance from your rabbi.  But, that being said,
I wear my kippa at work and go into the restaurant as such.  I actually
feel personally much more comfortable. In fact, it is easier to be there
with a kippa.  In NYC it is not uncommon to see people with kippas in
non kosher restaurants.

 I have been advised that drinking a coke or water is not a problem.
The restaurants in NYC and even where I work--outside of NYC--usually
understand the situation.  My rebbe once told me (I paraphrase slightly)
making deals over a soda is one of the marks of a frum businessman.  One
caveat though, if a restaurant is under questionable hashgocha or
"quasi-kosher" then going to such a place (of course, even without
eating) is problematic.

I hope this helps.

From: Isaac A Zlochower <zlochoia@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:44:17 -0400
Subject: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

In ml-jewish 29:01 someone asked about participating in a business
meeting at a non-kosher restaurant.  I will speak for myself only (a
qualified posek who deals with business people can give an authoritative
answer).  In my many years of employment in industry and government, I
have often joined with others at business meetings in treif restaurants.
The others will eat a normal meal while I generally find myself
restricted to a liquid luncheon such as coke, iced tea, beer, or even
water.  Ocassionally, I can get the restaurant to prepare a simple fruit
salad (you must tell them to omit any jello or dressings).  I wear my
kipa on such occasions just as at work, and do not see a problem with
appearances.  If the restaurant is owned by gentiles, and makes no
pretense about serving kosher food, why should anyone imagine that the
place is kosher simply because they see a Jew with a kipa there?  The
situation would be different in a restaurant that is ostensibly kosher,
but does not have a reliable kosher supervision.  Then one's presence
could be construed as a kind of hechsher.

Yitzchok Zlochower


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:38:12 -0400
Subject: Coming Late to Shul

Akiva Miller questions the special nature of Motza'ei Shabbos in regards
to not saying Baruch H-shem Leolom Amein V'Amein:

> Are you suggesting that this danger exists on Sunday night through
> Friday night, but not on Saturday night? Why would that be? If it is
> because they came to shul for Shabbos Mincha, and therefore no one was
> late for Maariv, wouldn't that logic also apply to Friday night?

Actually, from my observations, Nusach Sefard (Chassidish) refrains from
this on Motza'ei Shabbos, while Nusach Ashkenaz recites this even on
Motza'ei Shabbos.

My tongue-in-cheek explanation (although maybe it holds a grain of
truth) is that by Chassidim, the congregation eats Shalosh Seudos (the
third Sabbath meal) together with the Rebbe in shul, so there is no need
to take precaution for latecomers since everyone is already in
attendance at the start of Maariv. Since Litvaks eat Shalosh Seudos
together with their families, there is a percentage which does arrive
late for Maariv on Motza'ei Shabbos, and therefore the precaution of
reciting Baruch H-shem Leolom Amein V'Amein is added even on Motza'ei

Joseph Geretz

From: Todd Davidovits <Ruckus95@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:30:35 EDT
Subject: Re: Coming Late to Shul

In response to akiva miller, the reason that fri night we do not say
"baruch hashem" is bec people would work on erev shabbos and therefore
some would arrive late to the minyan in the fields in which they prayed
and since it was dangerous to walk home alone "baruch hashem" was
instituted, but on shabbos when noone would work there was no reason
recite this prayer for everyone would be on time, and since sunday was
just "another" working day as well and not part of the "weekend" "baruch
hashem " was correctly said for the latecomers. i hope this clarifies
things and if i was mistaken i humbly apologize

					Chazak, Todd Davidovits

source-Artscroll siddur ahavas shalom  ashkenaz p 256 


From: Yitzchok Zirkind <Yzkd@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:23:07 EDT
Subject: Re: Old Wine in Tamuz

> From: Bob Werman <RWERMAN@...>
>  Ba'al haTurim mentions [Orah Haim 169] that old wine in Tamuz [yayin
>  yashan b'tkufat tamuz] is -- together with fatty meat-- excused from the
>  rule that all food must be given immediately to the waiter.

This is based on the Gemarah in Kesuboth 61a, Rashi explains that in
Tkufas Tamuz which is the summer, the smell of the wine and the effect
of the heat, make it extremely enticing, this is not followed in
Mechabeir as the Tur himself continues based on the above Gemarah, that
it is not limited to fatty meat and old wine in the summer.

Kol Tuv



From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:44:21 -0400
Subject: Shir HaShirim and Megillas Esther

Scott D. Spiegler wrote:

> I wanted clarification on a point about Megillat Esther. I heard on a
> secular radio program that Shir haShirim was the only sefer in Tanach
> that does not mention G-d's name. I was under the impression that it was
> about Megiallat Esther that this was true and no other sefer.

> Did I misunderstand this issue or is there another explanation about why
> G-d's name seems to be omitted from Shir haShirim?

The Gemara, Shavuos daf 35b states: Every reference to 'Shlomo' in Shir
HaShirim, is holy (ie. is H-shem's name), and is understood as 'the One to
Whom peace belongs', except for 'HaElef Lecha Shlomo' (which refers to
Shlomo HaMelech).

(Rashi on the first Pasuk in Shir HaShirim also states this, without
mentioning the exception.)

Now my understanding of this is, that when the Gemara says the word 'Shlomo'
is *holy*, it means that not only does the name refer to H-shem, but that it
is an actual Shem H-shem. This is in contradistinction to Megillas Esther
where many times, HaMelech refers to H-shem but is not an actual Shem. So it
would seem to me, that Megillas Esther is actually the Sefer which does not
contain H-shem's name, whereas Shir HaShirim does.

Joseph Geretz


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:18:30 -0400
Subject: Shofar blowing at Musaf

It was mentioned a few issues ago that shofar blowing was done before
Musaf because people came to shul late.  There is a Yerushalmi, 
mentioned in the Artscroll Machzor, that the Romans once suspected the
Jews of rebelling against them because they heard the shofar sounds, and
therefore it was moved to Musaf by which time the Romans presumably
realized that it was for religious reasons and left them alone.



End of Volume 29 Issue 5