Volume 29 Number 07
                 Produced: Fri Jul 16  6:56:15 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

H-shem vs. Hashem
         [Andy Levy-Stevenson]
Observing Traffic Regulations.
         [Binyomin Segal]
Payos (6)
         [Lee David Medinets, Alan Davidson, Aaron D. Gross, Bill
Bernstein, Susan Shapiro, Gershon Dubin]
Praying for Someone Else
         [Joel Rich]
Shofar before mussaf
         [David I. Cohen]
Yom Tov Sheni (4)
         [Warren Burstein, Menashe Elyashiv, Kenneth B. Posy, Zvi Weiss]


From: Andy Levy-Stevenson <teafortwo@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:08:04 -0500
Subject: H-shem vs. Hashem

I've noticed the appearance recently of the term "H-shem" on Mail Jewish. 
 From the context, I'm assuming that it relates to the use of a dash in
the word G-d.

I don't want to reopen the G-d discussion, since I understand that the
list policy is to respect those people who choose to use this
formulation.  However, I would be curious to hear any sources, opinions,
or even anecdotal discussion in regard to the formulation H-shem as
opposed to Hashem. What is the basis for this usage?

 Andy Levy-Stevenson                    Email:   <teafortwo@...>
 Tea for Two                            Voice:              612.920.4243
 A Design and Communications Company    Fax:                612.920.4436


From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:17:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Observing Traffic Regulations.

Immanuel Burton's experience about experiencing a lack of sensitivity to
others from someone we think should know better is one we unfortunately
share. I imagine many of us can contribute similar experiences.

Here in Chicago the general wisdom is to blame it on "those <deleted>
new yorkers" who don't know any better. I think the Chicago jews feel a
certain sense of guilt that they have helped "ruin" chicago by somehow
attracting a large number of new yorkers to move here.

But kidding aside, there is a serious issue here - one that I have
struggled with in the past, and continue to struggle with.

The conclusion I keep coming to is that I can be responsible only for MY
behavior. I can not change the behavior of this other jew, and given my
personal investment - I can not even properly rebuke them. My only real
issue in this situation - can I behave appropriately (and this ain't
always easy). Can I respond with true Ahavas Yisroel in the face of real
thoughtlessness (and usually that is exactly the issue - the person
doesn't think - ie they don't even perceive the issue).

The way to increase Ahavas Yisroel is not by condemning others for their
lack, but by working on myself to do better.

binyomin segal


From: Lee David Medinets <LDMLaw@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:49:03 -0400
Subject: Payos

Aviva Fee writes:
> It is my own personal opinion that irrespective of the reason above, when a 
> father does not have payos and their son does, there is a subtle message 
> that:
> * The son is an object that the parents wants to look cute
> * What the father does is in contrast to what the son does
> * Mesora  (tradition) is meaningless
> What I am getting at is that while payos make seem cute and innocuous, they 
> have the potential to cause serious, subtle damage to the long-term 
> religiosity of the child due to the inherent contradiction between 
> themselves and their father.
> Any comments?

I do have a few comments:
1. Often people in the Jewish community may do the right thing or a good 
thing without knowing the right reason or even a good reason for it.  That 
may be because they see others, in particular the families of rabbis they 
respect, doing things in a particular way.  The fashion of wearing payos in 
yeshiva communities is a good example of this.
2. Most adult men in the yeshiva community do have payos, even if they are 
not aware of it, because the real payos are a beard, or at least sideburns 
down to the middle of the ear.
3. The side locks that children often wear are primarily justified as 
chinuch in the prohibition of cutting a man's beard.  This purpose applies 
to children, not adults.
4. Fashion, tradition and separation from non-Jews are also appropriate, 
kosher reasons why many parents may want their children to wear payos. 
Indeed, in parts of Brooklyn or in Lakewood, New Jersey, for example, a 
boy would be seriously separated from his Jewish classmates if he does not 
wear payos.  These reasons may, again, apply more to children than to 
5. Children are undoubtedly, in part, objects that parents would like to 
see looking cute.  We try to adorn ourselves and our loved ones in ways we 
(and our community) find attractive.  Nothing wrong with that.
6. I don't know of any families with a legitimate tradition of not wearing 
payos.  I suppose some must exist, but I don't know of them.  I don't know 
of any Orthodox grandparents who object to their grandsons' wearing payos. 
In cases where there is a tradition or there is an objection their may be 
a question of violating a mesora.  In other cases, I believe there is not. 
A certain latitude for personal taste and conformity with community 
standards is perfectly consistent with tradition.  A man may change the 
shape of his hat, the tunes he sings on Shabbos, the type of tzizis he 
wears, or even his son's haircut without expecting to offend his ancestors 
unless, of course, he is descended from one of the most rigidly tradition 
bound sects of Judaism.  Even then, have his ancestors the right to be 

Dovid Medinets

From: Alan Davidson <DAVIDSON@...>
Subject: Payos

I don't think the difference is only with payos -- notice how many post-
bar Mitzvah boys have black hats while their parents do not -- education
may also play an important role.

From: Aaron D. Gross <aaron@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:18:08 -0700
Subject: RE: Payos

Being clean-shaven was far more common in the previous two generations.
In my father's and grandfather's generations, among those born in the
US, beards were uncommon.  I do.  Children can easily understand that
there were different social norms in different generations.

Moreover, the fathers DO have peyos... they're just short.

If the child saw the parent do something actually in contradiction with
halacha, THAT would be damaging because it is hypocrasy.  Having
differing levels of observance within the wide norm (from clean-shaven
to never-shaven) is OK.

And if the child is a child of baalei tshuva, it is quite normal for the
parent to look somewhat more like a bridge from where he came from and
the child.

From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:24:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Payos

 In V.29 #1 Akiva Fee asked about boys who wear payos while their
fathers don't and questioning the propriety of this.  In interest of
disclosure, both I and my son (4 yrs old) wear payos, and this in an
*extremely* "out-of town" community.
 Otherwise, I would assume that the boys wear peyos until they are old
enough to grow sideburns and fulfill the mitzva of peyos: what they do
as children is chinuch for later life, even though they will not be
wearing what we commonly call peyos, but still fulfilling the mitzva.

From: Susan Shapiro <SShap23859@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:45:02 EDT
Subject: Payos

Payos is not the only thing.  There is a difference in religiosity with
many of us who are much more frum than our parents.  Has that caused any
damage?  I think that, if it is for religious reasons, and the children
want to be more religious than the parents, there is no problem. Isn't
that our goal as parents, to make our children better than us?  My son
decided to grow his payos cos he wanted to bei n Guiness Book of World
Records.  It took a while, but we finally convicned him that it wasn't
going to work, and we trimmed them to the bottom of the ear.  Meshugas?
I don't know, but I'd rather have it towards something more religious,
than Chas Vesholom, the oppposite.
 Susan Shapiro

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:01:56 -0400
Subject: Payos

	Some of my boys have payos; some don't.  I don't.  Some of my
children are makpid on cholov yisrael; some are not.  I am not; my wife
is.  If we are all headed for psychological crash and burn due to these
"inherent contradictions", B"H we don't know it.  None of either group
feel superior or inferior to the other for that reason.  Maybe we have
succeeded in teaching them what is and what is not important in one's
religious observance/status.

	FWIW,  nobody has payos because they look cute.



From: Joel Rich <Joelirich@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:38:35 EDT
Subject: Re: Praying for Someone Else

> My question is: that explanation deals with the person himself praying,
> not with others praying for him (unless he does tshuvah because he knows
> that others are praying for him).  It is possible to argue that
> metaphysically, person X is changed because person Y has prayed for him
> because we are all somehow connected.  Perhaps.  But this is very
> mystical, not rational at all.  If you are into mysticism, I have some
> other explanations for the efficacy of prayer:

R' N Alpert TZ"L explained that Unlike an earthly king, HKB"H judges an
individual and issues decrees not just based on the impact on the
individual but on those impacted by the individual. Our introspection
and realization of our dependence on this individual or the hurt we
suffer when he hurts are taken into account by HKB"H as he judges that

She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,
Joel Rich


From: David I. Cohen <BDCOHEN613@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:51:07 EDT
Subject: Shofar before mussaf

The gemara in Rosh Hashana 16a says that we blow the shofar before
mussaf ("sitting" because the original custom was to sit during that
blowing) in addition to the shofar during mussaf ("standing") in order
to "confuse" (or better translated "defuse") the satan, which according
to some means, that since we are showing how much we love performing the
mitzva, it will blunt the arguments of the prosecuting angel.
	Tosfot there shows that this additional shofar blowing it not a 
violation of "baal tosif", adding to mitzvot.
	David I. Cohen


From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:13:28 +0300
Subject: Re: Yom Tov Sheni

It would seem to me that any mitzvah which is deoraita on Yom Tov is
derabbanan on the second day.  Is a wonderful performance of the latter any
compensation for lacunae in the former?

From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:30:19 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Yom Tov Sheni

Here in Eretz Israel we don't need two days in order to get into the Yom
Tov mood as posted on mail jewish. one can feel the mood before the
holyday - in the market, at work etc.
also, many work places are closed on Hol Hamoad so we have a full week for
Pesah & Succot. Staying up all nite on Shavot makes that day a long & full
BTW, a 2 day holyday (Rosh Hashana or Hag + Shabbat) is hard on large
families - small apartments, 1 refrigidare.....
Kol Tuv 

From: Kenneth B. Posy <kbposy@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:58:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Yom Tov Sheni 

Rabbi Weiss wrote:

    I quite understand that some people may find the "extra" day of Yom Tov
   to be of value -- However, I suspect that this is only so because we
   have been "conditioned" by our State of Galus and deprivation from the
   true Kedushas Ha'Aretz.

Another interesting point that might explain this phenomenon is that the
character of Yom Tov in Eretz Yisrael and chutz laaretz are very
different. In Israel, Yom tov are really bookends for chol hamoed, which
is infused with much more of a "special feel". The whole country takes
vacation, dress in shabbos clothing, have family meals, etc...  In the
US, at least in my experience, the character of chagim is more driven by
yom tov, with two days in the beginning and two at end, plus often
shabbos in the middle, it is rare that there is more that one "real" day
of moed, that is not erev shabbos or yom tov.  Plus, most people have to
work extra hard to make up for the time that we missed for Yom Tov.
That is one major reason why people from Chutz Laaretz have a tough time
imagining one day of yom tov.

Kenneth B. Posy
Corporate Development Analyst
IBM Corporation, New Orchard Road, Armonk, New York 10504
(914) 499 (T/L 641) 6110        Fax -7317

From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:12:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yom Tov Sheni

Regarding the comment that we do not "condition" Y"T Sheni on the
ability of messengers to reach a given area.  There was already a post
noting that in Lebanon that was NOT the case -- that they were careful
to keep "one day" in an area that the messengers reached.  As for Erretz
Yisrael, itself -- I suspect (although I am not sure) that the issues of
Eilat WAS discussed in responsa and that the response was NOT simply
"that it is part of Eretz Yisrael" and that is good enough.  Does anyone
have more precise references (I recall this matter haveing been
discussed quite some time ago).
 I think that it is important that we do not allow our "emotional
attachment" to E"Y to over-rule the halachic norms that the Gemara 
(and Rishonim) appear to have clearly posited.


End of Volume 29 Issue 7