Volume 29 Number 13
                 Produced: Tue Jul 20  6:36:59 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants (6)
         [Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes, Yossie Abramson, Nachum Chernofsky, J
Rosenbaum, Israel.Rubin@us.wmmercer.com, Aaron Fischman]
Nutritional advise for non Jewish Restaurant eating
         [Russell Hendel]
Purpose of the List (2)
         [Susan Chambre, Avi Feldblum]


From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes <sthoenna@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:29:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

In article <19990714104902.28852.qmail@...>:
>I heard a psak that one is not allowed to enter a non-kosher restaurant
>even if only in order to use the bathroom. Kovod HaBrios is not strong
>enough in this regard. Entering an eating place with a yarmulka or
>looking Jewish in general (combination of beard, Payos, Zizis, dress
>style) ) will convey the notion that this is a kosher place (especially
>to unassuming Jewish bystander).  Maybe by taking off your kippah you
>can trigger a discussion about the why's and how's and can bring your
>co-workers to go to a kosher place.

:) It will certainly trigger a discussion if you are careful to:

1. remove your kipah only within four amos of the restaurant entrance;
2. walk inside with your hand covering your head; and
3. keep your hand covering your head when you are walking or sitting

(see MB 2:11-12).

>> In addition, is there anything that I'm permitted to order in this type
>> of a place, such as a can of soda? How about the ice water that these
>> places always serve?
>That's most probably no problem.

4. But remember to pull your sleeve over your hand and cover your head
   with it to make the bracha.

More seriously, remember to take everything said in this list as purely
hypothetical.  If you want to know what you should do, CYLOR.  If you
don't have one, get one.

From: Yossie Abramson <yossie@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:00:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

Now that you mentioned that you work in NYC, I have a suggestion. I work
in NYC as well, everytime we have a business meeting, I just tell
everyone that I can't eat in a non-kosher restaurant. NYC has an
abundance of restaurants suitable for business meetings. Don't worry,
most people won't make a fuss out of it.


From: Nachum Chernofsky <nachumc@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:10:08 +0300
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

In Vol29:5, there were a number of postings regarding possible solutions
to the "problem" of business meetings in non-kosher restaurants.  I
can't resist pointing out that the obvious solution is to come on aliya
and work in a Jewish environment.

I have an acquaintance who works for a public relations firm in New
Jersey.  His company handles many Fortune 500 companies and he simply
can't wear a kippa to work.  He "solves" this problem by wearing a
toupee.  When I first heard about this "solution" I was thrown for a
loop.  I am familiar with Rav Moshe z"l's hetter for not wearing a kippa
when it threatens a person's "parnassa".  However, I can't believe that
this is how Hashem intended for us to live.  Our role in life is to be
"m'kadesh shmo ba'rabim".  How can we possibly do that when we have to
cover our Jewish appearance for whatever permissible reason.

I read an article by Harav Leff in which he pointed out that the role of
the Jewish people is to sanctify Hashem's name on the national level.
When we were exiled from Eretz Yisrael because of our sins, we were no
longer able to fulfill this national role.

I guess that what is left for us to do is to fulfill the role on the
personal level.  I find it admirable that Jews make efforts to sanctify
Hashem's name in all walks of life.  Having discussions like the one
regarding business meetings in non-kosher restaurants certainly shows a
deep concern for fulfilling one's role as a Jew.  However, let us not
forget that living outside of Eretz Yisrael is a b'dieved situation.
The obvious solution to such problems is moving to Israel which is the
ONLY place where one can truly fulfill the role of the Jew and the
Jewish people (as much as can possibly be done today).  This was and is
Hashem's intention for us.

Nachum Chernofsky <nachumc@...>

From: J Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:39:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

Josh Hoexter <hoexter@...> wrote:
> While I won't comment on entering the restaurant (definitely CYLOR), I'd
> like to comment on a few suggestions made. I have heard the cap
> suggestion before, but IMHO it may be worse than a yarmulke if you look
> like an Orthodox Jew with a baseball cap on. A Jewish man in business
> dress and a baseball cap (in this type of situation) looks like he's
> trying to hide something. 

I don't mean to divert the discussion into men's clothing, but I know
men who wear berets and tweed caps which look relatively apropos.  I can
even think of men who wear such head coverings because they like them,
not because they're observant.


From: <Israel.Rubin@...>
Subject: Re: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

With regards to the issue brought up by Anonymous (v29 #01) & the many
comments on this topic, I too found myself in a similar quandary. (I had
skipped several company lunches & was called on it by the boss.) In my
case, I work in an area with almost no frum Jews & I therefore
considered the likelihood of myself being seen by one as negligible,
thus I felt it was not "maaris ayin". However, I was worried about
making a Chillul Hashem. Even if a goy were to think he sees a Jew
eating treif, it could be considered a Chillul Hashem", showing as it
seems to, that this Jew is not concerned about the Torah's prohibition
against eating unkosher food. I asked R' Shmuel Kaminetsky Shlita about
it and he said that since I needed to do it for business reasons I could
go ahead. But this might differ by circumstance, & I would suggest
consulting a LOR.

Lon Eisenberg writes (v29 #05) "It's nice how people say "But what about
marith `ayin [the way it appears]", but, as far as I know, we have no
halakhic source (in the Talmud) indicating that such an act comes under
the prohibition of marith `ayin, and you can't make up your own." While
it is true that there are certain examples of Maaris Ayin specified in
the Talmud, that is not to exclude all other cases, & the poskim have
historically interpreted them as being general guidelines from which
other examples can be learned. See for example Yoreh Deah Siman 87 Seif
3-4. See also Igros Moshe O.C. Vol IV siman 82 who says explicitly that
all forms of Maaris Ayin are prohibited.

On another issue, Jeff Fischer writes (v28 #100) "...some shuls do not
say Baruch Hashem on Motza'ay Shabbos and Yom Tov." Later (v29 #5)
Joseph Geretz suggests that this is Nusach Sfard. My own personal
experience has been that this is only done in Shteeblach, & that the
vast majority of places that daven Sfard say it on Motzaey Shabbos as
well (those who say it all week, that is). In any event, R' Moshe
Feinstein writes (Igros Moshe Y.D. Vol. III Siman 96 #8) that this
custom does not any basis or status as a minhag.

From: Aaron Fischman <afischman@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:51:47 -0400
Subject: RE: Business Meetings in Non-Kosher Restaurants

I have had the 'opportunity' to attend meetings in non kosher
establishments.  At first I wore a baseball cap, but it seemed out of
place in nicer restaurants.  Now I wear my work ID prominently to make
it obvious that I am at a work related function.  I also have my own
food, though I will usually have Diet Coke.

Aharon Fischman


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:15:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Nutritional advise for non Jewish Restaurant eating

Just wanted to complement all the excellent postings about advice to
businessmen who eat in non kosher restaurants.(Zvi Weiss (v29n8)
summarized several postings in v28n101 thru v29n8 by quoting a discussion
at a convention that is permissable).

I just wanted to add some advice about what to eat. Obviously if you
are consumating a business deal you want to feel fresh and alert. There
have been many studies on what is optimal to eat (Eg'The Breakfast Meal
in Relation to What we eat'(Orent-Keiles and Hallman) US Department of
Agriculture #827, 1949--many other studies have been conducted since then
and there is even a Gmarrah in Baba Kamah echoing this theme).

The bottom line of all these studies is that if you ONLY have carbohydrates
then your body digests them quickly, pulls all the sugar out of your system
and you are left with a "hungry feeling". However if you combine protein
with the carbohydrates the body digests them slowly and releases the sugar
into your system at a gradual pace making you feel good.

Based on the above, when I eat in non-kosher restaurants I always try
and have some protein as well as sugar: I usually have a glass of milk
with orange juice (or as other posters suggested, yogurt or fruit or
salad and dressings if the containers are available and are Kosher).
Another good source of protein are packaged (Kosher) peanuts (you
can even purchase small packages and bring them along with you to
the restaurant).

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA
Moderator Rashi Is Simple


From: Susan Chambre <Smchambre@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:26:10 EDT
Subject: Purpose of the List

I have been following the discussion about business meetings in
non-kosher restaurants with some interest since I attended a shiur this
past year at which Rabbi Herschel Schacter discussed this matter along
with other Halachot related to business.

I have refrained from joining in the discussion since I have a lot of
trouble with second hand passing along of information in the form of "I
once heard Rabbi so and so say..."

My questions are as follows. 

Is the purpose of this list to seek answers to questions that might more
appropriately be addressed to Rebbeim since many of them they are in
fact shalot?

I should like to remind everyone that this list is, or at least was,
archived. This means that if you did a search on the net, you might be
able to refer to the answer.Someone not thoroughly familiar with
Orthodox ways (that one seek Rabbinic guidance -- or even a person who
doesn't know what LOR means) might be seriously misled.

Susan Chambre

From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:13:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Purpose of the List

On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 <Smchambre@...> wrote:

> Is the purpose of this list to seek answers to questions that might more 
> appropriately be addressed to Rebbeim since many of them they are in fact 
> shalot? 

In the Welcome posting, as well as occasionally during discussions, I try
to make it clear that this list is NOT a source of psak. For any specific
case, in order to decide how YOU WILL ACT, you need to decide based on
your personal rabbinic decisor. The purpose of the list is to discuss the
underlying issues involved which a posek may weigh and judge on. In
addition, the list serves the purpose of bringing to the fore the various
aspects of a question or topic, that may not have been obvious to the
original poster.

> I should like to remind everyone that this list is, or at least was,
> archived. This means that if you did a search on the net, you might be
> able to refer to the answer.Someone not thoroughly familiar with
> Orthodox ways (that one seek Rabbinic guidance -- or even a person who
> doesn't know what LOR means) might be seriously misled.

This list is archived and indexed. For this reason, I recommend to people
to take the extra 10 minutes to reread what they have posted, to try and
make sure it holds together and that they try and spell check their work.
I may catch some of it, but you all will make my life easier, as well as
make this list more enjoyable for all, if you each take a few extra
minutes to read what you post before you send it out.

While there is the possibility that someone will pull material out of the
list out of context, in general if they pull any specific topic from the
archives, they are likely to find that it has been discussed several times
over the last 13 years, and that there are often many different opinions.

Avi Feldblum 
mail-jewish Moderator 


End of Volume 29 Issue 13