Volume 29 Number 15
                 Produced: Wed Jul 21  6:17:52 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aliyos in VaEschanan (2)
         [Gershon Dubin, Yehuda Poch]
Eicha in the Morning (2)
         [Gershon Dubin, Joshua Hoffman]
         [Gershon Dubin]
Music during the three weeks
         [Richard Wolpoe]
Music during the three weeks, Meat during the 9 days
         [Elie Rosenfeld]
Proper Conversation on Tisha beAv
Restaurant Serving Meat during Nine Days (3)
         [Mike Gerver, Rachel Smith, Richard Wolpoe]
Suggestion for pre/erev Tisha beAv Greeting/Farewell
Three Weeks
         [Gershon Dubin]


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:15:58 -0400
Subject: Aliyos in VaEschanan

>1.  There seem to be two traditions regarding where the first aliyah 
>of parshat Devarim ends.  On the one hand, the Koren Tanach and the
>ArtScroll chumash end the aliyah with verse 10.  On the other hand,
>every other listing of the aliyah which I have (the Hertz chumash,
>Siddur Rinat Yisrael, the JPS chumash, my two tikunim--including the 
>new "Simanim", and others) end the aliyah with verse 11.

I'm not sure that there are two traditions.  The custom is fairly
universal to stop one posuk before sheini in order not to begin the
aliyah following with Eicha.  However, on Monday, Thursday and the
previous Shabbos at Mincha, we stop at the place marked sheini.


From: Yehuda Poch <yehudap@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:18:24 +0300
Subject: Aliyos in VaEschanan

In response to my father's note on this topic.

Rav Aharon Soloveichik's son, Rav Chaim lives in my neighbourhood in
Israel and runs a shul in his home.  Rav Aharon is visiting this summer.
This past Shabbat, Chazon, with Rav Aharon in shul, the minyan ended
rishon and began sheini at the indicated spot, beginning sheini with the
pasuk Eicha esa levadi.

Rav Chaim explained this beforehand, citing the Gra's opinion that no
element of mourning from the nine days should be brought into shabbos.
For the same reason, they read the haftara with the normal haftara tune,
and not the eicha tune, and they did not change the tunes for other
places where signing is done during davening (eg. Lecha Dodi).

Yehuda Poch


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:27:53 -0400
Subject: Eicha in the Morning

>I do recall seeing a source many years ago that discussed the
>permissibility of reading eicha after the knot were over only if it 
>was not chatzot hayom.  Since we arise after chatzot and remove some of 
>the aveilut (mourning) from ourselves eicha can no longer be read.

Please provide a citation for this. While some of the aveilus customs
are eased after midday, by no means is it NOT permitted to continue
aveilus.  In fact, the Mishna Brura stresses that the fast day is not
over, and the prohibitions are still in effect, including the one on
learning Torah, and therefore Eicha is quite appropriate even after
midday.  Definitely not true that it **cannot** (sorry about double
negatives) be said.


From: Joshua Hoffman <JoshHoff@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:05:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Eicha in the Morning

I was told recently by someone who was in Kube during the war that the
community there did not receive its shipment of kinos from America until
the day after Tisha B'Av.They asked R.Yechaezkel Levenstein what to do
on Tisha B'Av, and he told them to read Eicha in the morning, verse by
verse following the lead of the chazan.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:07:48 -0400
Subject: Hashgacha

>I recall that mashgichim (supervisors) did not wish to co-operate 
>with certifying the "Glatt Yacht" because it had mixed dancing.  Are
>Mashgichim responsisble to keep meat off the plates of not-so careful
>Jews during the nine days, too?

While we need to keep some perspective i.e. that mixed dancing may well
be yehoreg ve'al yaavor while meat in the nine days is a minhag, and
only of Ashkenazim, still, why does a restaurant catering to a religious
clientele serving meat?



From: Richard Wolpoe <richard_wolpoe@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:18:14 -0400
Subject: Music during the three weeks

>>From: Rachi Messing <rachim@...>
Does anyone know the source for not listening to recorded music during
the three weeks? I've found sources not to play musical instruments
because of simcha - which can probably be extended to listening to live
music, but besides extending it even further to include recorded music
is there any other source? Also, how about during sefiras haomer? >>

I have long pondered why would halacho object to listening to 3-week
appropriate music, EG eli tziyon, eicho, etc. and other apprpriate
modes?  In fact, it appears that during the time of Mishno women wailed
at funerals, even using instruments.

Rich Wolpoe


From: Elie Rosenfeld <erosenfe@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:10:12 -0400
Subject: Music during the three weeks, Meat during the 9 days

Rachi Messing writes:
> Does anyone know the source for not listening to recorded music during
> the three weeks?

If there is such a "source" it must be a very recent one.  My impression
is that those who avoid non-live music base this on the original minhag
vis a vis live music, and have simply not chosen to differentiate.
Those who do allow recorded music certainly have a leg to stand on,
since a) obviously, the only type of music prohibited in the original
minhag was live music and b) there is significantly more joy/fun/simcha
in hearing live music played for you than in listening to the radio.
People have the radio on all the time, so hearing non-live music is too
commonplace to be a big deal, while going to a live concert is much more

Incidentally, Yeshiva University, at least as of when I was last there
(1985), did broadcast music on WYUR during sefira.

In terms of Richard Wolpoe's question about meat during the 9 days,
aside from the possibility that the patrons he saw had held a siyum,
again we are dealing with a minhag, in fact one that has been much
amplified over the years.  The original halacha was to not eat meat or
drink wine at the final meal before Tisha B'Av.  That was since expanded
to the entire day before Tisha B'Av, then the week of Tisha B'Av, and
finally the entire nine days.  (In fact, I believe many communities only
adopted as far as the "week-of" minhag, so the folks Richard saw last
week may have had that practice.)  In any case, I will go out on a limb
and opine that the importance of judging people favorably during the
nine days and all year round, is of much greater importance than when to
avoid eating meat.


Elie Rosenfeld


From: Mordechai <Phyllostac@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:51:31 EDT
Subject: Proper Conversation on Tisha beAv

 There is a halacha that 'ain sheailas sholom lachaveiro bitisha beAv
(one does not greet their friend in the ordinary manner when in the
Tisha beAv day/state of mourning).
 To me, sheailas shalom means asking another's welfare. So the law seems
to say that we should, in order to show that we are observing a day of
mourning for the Temple, etc., not ask the welfare of a friend in the
normal way of conversation/greeting (Quite possibly, in those days, when
one person asked another 'How are you?' they really meant it and wanted
to know the other person's welfare-which may not always be the case
 Anyway, the fact that the expression 'sheailas Shalom' (inquiring re
welfare) is used could lead one to say that it is okay to greet another
person with a different, lesser type of greeting that is not an inquiry
of the other's welfare, e.g. a 'good morning' type of greeting.
 However, the mishna berura states, that it is also asur to say 'good
morning'. 'Good morning' to me seems like a blessing type of a
greeting-one wishes the other party a good morning-a step down from
sheailas shalom, but still a higher form of greeting.
 IMHO, a lower form of greeting would be 'Hello', which unlike the
aforementioned two greetings is neither an inquiry re the other party's
welfare, nor a blessing. (I believe I once read that the word/greeting
'hello' is a recent invention, coined when the telephone came into
service and brought about the need for an expression to use when picking
up the phone. I don't know how true that is. Perhaps in the Chofetz
Chaim's days there was no local equivalent of hello-and I don't know if
there is to this day in other languages. I think some other
countries/languages have just adopted hello from the USA).  So the
question is-may one say hello on 9 Av?Perhaps there is a place to be
lenient if necessary-but I am not a Rabbi-just raising the point as
'food for thought'.
 I bring up these points because it has felt awkward for me not saying
hello on 9 Av, causing me to think about this aspect of the day... Even
the Chafetz Chaim suggests that if someone does not know about this law
and might be offended if you don't greet them, you should explain to them
gently that it is 9 Av when we are in mourning-therefore they were not
greeted normally, so they shouldn't be offended, thereby showing
recognition of the potential observance of this halacha has to cause
ill-will-something we especially don't want in this part of the jewish
 The question is,  may one not greet a friend/acquaintance at all on 9 Av
or are only certain greetings proscribed.
 I have another idea that I will throw out for consideration. Perhaps one
can acknowledge another person who they would normally greet verbally, 
with a bodily motion instead, such a nod of the head-which is neither
sheailas shalom, blessing or even a verbal acknowledgement such as
'hello'. This may be the least problematic of the options discussed so
 One other related thing comes to mind. A few years back I davened mincha
of 9 Av at a certain minyan. After the services, I said 'yasher koach' (or
yeyasher kochacha)(similar to thank you-literally may your strength
[power/aim?] be straightened) to the baal kria (one who read the
Torah). He responded to me that 'on Tisha beAv we don't give yasher
koach'. My reaction was-it says that one doesn't give sheailas Shalom or
good morning-but who proscribed a yasher koach for hakoras hatov? Is
thank you proscribed?
 Thinking about this topic in a broader manner, it seems that the
Rabbis, in order that people should keep in the front of their
consciousness the mourning theme of the day, decreed that one not start
conversing with people in one's normal manner-similar to the laws of a
mourner and those visiting him,  who are told to alter their normal
conversational style.They did not, though proscribe conversation in
general-just made some changes-especially in regard to
initiation/beginning of conversations/greeting others-to help us keep
the focus of the day in mind.  Also-I asked a Rabbi if there is any
leniency regarding this law of how to chat with others after chatzos
(mid-day).He said that he is not aware of such an idea of leniency
mentioned in this area, as mentioned , e.g. re sitting on a regular chair
and not on the ground/low stool, etc., after chatzos.
 I would welcome feedback on the above piece.Thanks all.  A 'gutten (&
meaningful) Moed' and an easy fast-tzom kal.


Tzion bamishpat tipadeh vishaveha bitzedakah


From: Mike Gerver <MJGerver@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:25:01 EDT
Subject: Restaurant Serving Meat during Nine Days

Richard Wolopoe, in v29n10, asks

> Question: is a glatt kosher restaurant responsible for serving meat to
>  those who should be halachically refraining from eating meat during the
>  nine days?

There is a heter for travellers to eat meat during the nine days.  I
once asked a shayla about airline meals, and was told I could eat a
fleischig one during the nine days.  (Ask your own rabbi, or course.
But don't assume you can't do it without asking!)  People travelling out
of town often eat in restaurants, so it is not obvious that the people
you saw eating fleischigs were doing anything wrong, let alone that the
restaurant was doing anything wrong to serve them.  Some people might
also have a heter to eat meat for health reasons.

Mike Gerver

From: Rachel Smith <rachelms@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:06:06 -0700
Subject: Re: Restaurant Serving Meat during Nine Days

Perhaps the meat-eaters were Sefaradim, who refrain from meat only
during the week that 9 Av falls?

Your question is valid this week, though.  Perhaps since the meat-eaters
could easily prepare a meat meal at home, the restaurant is only
violating m'seyea on a d'rabbonon, for which perhaps a heter could be
found in case of great financial loss (closing the business for a week).


From: Richard Wolpoe <richard_wolpoe@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:38:09 -0400
Subject: Restaurant Serving Meat during Nine Days

>>From: Chaim Wasserman <Chaimwass@...> Date
 Rich Wolpoe is concerned about eating meat in the nine days served in
restaurants with reputable kashrus. Why so when the din hagemara of
abstaining from meat is only on erev Tisha bAv. All else is a time
honored minhag but not a violation of that halachic restriction.

Not so with the mixed dancing which is subsumed under the heading of
pritzus.  Here religious authority is mandated to control. That is why
the Glatt Yacht didn't fly (or sail). >>

Indeed the parallels are not identical.  But my point was not to nitpick
the dgree of issur re: meat during the ine days, my point was simple:
"What are the parameters of liifnei iver (aiding and abetting a
misdeed)".  The Nine Days was more for illustrative purposes.

As far as kaf zchus - giving the benefit of the doubt- goes, one could
argue that the glatt yacht had mixed dancing for only married couples,
if one used that train of thought.

Rich Wolpoe


From: Mordechai <Phyllostac@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:29:25 EDT
Subject: Suggestion for pre/erev Tisha beAv Greeting/Farewell

 I suggest that 'a gutten Moed' (as used on chol haMoed) (Moed tov) (a
la 'kara alay moed....') can be used in addition to the more general
(for a taanis) 'a gringen taanis/tzom kal' ,as a pre 9 Av
greeting/farewell.Not on 9 Av itself seemingly,as the mishna brura would
seemingly prohibit it,but preceding it.
 This particular choice of words would serve to remind people that Tisha
beAv is a 'Moed' -even nowadays/bizman hazeh (that's why we don't say
tachanun on the day).Parenthetically,I once heard an explanation in the
name of Rav Gifter (or another Telsher Rosh Yeshiva?) of Telshe as to
why 9 Av is considered a Moed even now.It explains that moed doesn't
necessarily mean a happy Holiday-rather a special time (of meeting-a la
ohel moed).So a day when the Hashem manifested himself so
strongly/openly in the world in relation to his nation-even if it was to
punish-is still a special day-because it shows our special relationship
with him-as it says 'eis asher ye'ehav Hashem yochiach' (Hashem rebukes
the one he loves)-at least something along those lines.
 Actually the word holiday is deried from holy-day,so to call 9 Av a
holiday-even now-doesn't seem technically to be wrong....  I would be
interested to hear people's thoughts about my proposal.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:24:35 -0400
Subject: Three Weeks

>What is the status of the Three Weeks (between 17 Tammuz and 9 Av). I
>recently tried looking up the laws of the three weeks in the Mishna
>Brura and could not find mention of them (although the 9 days and
>shavu'a shechal bo (the week in which 9 Av falls) were mentioned).

Getting married:  Siman 551 Seif 2 in the Ramo
Saying Shehecheyan:  Same Siman,  Seif 17
Other:  Same Siman,  Seif 18

I don't believe there is anything explicit regarding music (many poskim
hold that the reason is that music is not permitted all year)



End of Volume 29 Issue 15