Volume 29 Number 19
                 Produced: Fri Jul 23  6:34:59 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A Heter to say "Hashem" in English Blessings
         [Russell Hendel]
Aliyos in VaEschanan
         [Michael Poppers]
Eicha perek 3
         [Isaac Hollander]
mail-jewish Vol. 29 #15 Digest (2)
         [Ken G. Miller, Oren Popper]
Meat during the 9 days / "Glatt Yacht"
         [Zvi Weiss]
Meat During the nine days
Music during the three weeks
         [Ken G. Miller]
Regarding Hilchot Shabbos
         [Zilberberg, David]
Restaurant Serving Meat during Nine Days
         [Daniel Israel]
VIHI NOAN on Saturday Night=MAGAN AVOTH on Friday Night
         [Russell Hendel]


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:13:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A Heter to say "Hashem" in English Blessings

Tillis Yerachmiel (v28n101) is of the opinion that if one is saying
a blessing in English that one should not say 'Blessed are You, Hashem'
but should rather say 'Blessed are You, God'.

My own opinion is that "everyone knows" that HASHEM means God and therefore
it is permissable to use the term. The logical idea behind this is that
the term HASHEM has acquired an English meaning. The idea that words
can acquire new meaning can be proved by the following  Rambam, Sales
Chapter 28, 13:14

>>If I consumate a sale and say "You have acquired my 10-Acre field"
>>and all people in town call this "The 10-acre field" then the deal
>>is a deal EVEN if the field only has 1-2 acres. ... Similarly if
>>I sell you my vineyard and everyone calls it my vineyard the deal
>>is a deal even if it has no vines.

Thus the Rambam is clear: USAGE (what everyone calls something) takes
precedence over DICTIONARY MEANING. Thus the 10-acre farm refers to my
farm even if it doesn't have 10 acres and my vineyard is so termed even
if it doesn't have vines. So too HASHEM means GOD because that is how
everyone uses it.

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA;
Moderator; Rashi Is Simple


From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:36:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Aliyos in VaEschanan

YPoch replied:
> Rav Aharon Soloveichik's son, Rav Chaim lives in my neighbourhood in
Israel and runs a shul in his home.  Rav Aharon is visiting this summer.
This past Shabbat, Chazon, with Rav Aharon in shul, the minyan ended
rishon and began sheini at the indicated spot, beginning sheini with the
pasuk Eicha esa levadi.

Rav Chaim explained this beforehand, citing the Gra's opinion that no
element of mourning from the nine days should be brought into shabbos.
For the same reason, they read the haftara with the normal haftara tune,
and not the eicha tune, and they did not change the tunes for other
places where signing is done during davening (eg. Lecha Dodi). <

Re the Shabbos-Chazon laining, I seem to recall that such is also done in
"Breuer's" (Washington Heights, New York City), and the prohibition against
mourning on Shabbos may well be a, if not the, reason why.  (Tangentially,
even though my father a'h had passed away that week, Rav Gelley sh'l'y't'a'
ruled that I should be given an aliyah on the Shabbos before my chasnah, as
would be done in "normal" Aufruf circumstances, because to not do so would
reveal my status as a within-7-days Ovail.)  However, the "Aili Tziyon"
tune is used for L'cha Dodi on that Shabbos, possibly because it's used for
all bain-ha'm'tzorim ("Three Weeks") shabbosos.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ


From: Isaac Hollander <ysh@...>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:57:54 -0400
Subject: Eicha perek 3

The minhag at the shul I grew up in is to read the 3rd perek of Eicha in
a different trup (tune) than perakim 1,2,4 and 5.  However, several
people I've spoken to are unfamiliar with the custom.

The 3rd perek clearly differs from the rest of the sefer, in both
structure (triple alef-bet, short pesukim) and content (understanding
the churban and still retaining bitachon (belief) in Hashem, as opposed
to lengthy descriptive lamentations).

Can any of the resident MJ trupologists shed light on this minhag?  Is
the trup change cited in Rishonim or Acharonim?  Which Ashkenazic
traditions have the change?  What about Sefardic traditions?

Hope all had an easy and meaningful fast.

Yitzchak Hollander

From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:51:25 -0400
Subject: RE: Aliyos in VaEschanan

In MJ 29:15, Yehuda Poch wrote that <<< Rav Chaim [Soloveitchik] explained
this beforehand, citing the Gra's opinion that no element of mourning from
the nine days should be brought into shabbos. For the same reason, they read
the haftara with the normal haftara tune, and not the eicha tune, and they
did not change the tunes for other places where signing is done during
davening (eg. Lecha Dodi). >>>

For a very different viewpoint, see Baruch Schwartz's post in MJ 25:64
(http://shamash.org/listarchives/mail-jewish/volume25/v25n64) where he
wrote at length, giving many reasons to justify these practices on
Shabbos Chazon.  His conclusion was that <<< it is necessary to
distinguish between two concepts: Avelut "mourning" and Kinah
"lamentation". Mourning, at least in public and according to some
authorities even in private, is forbidden on Shabbat. Lamentation, on
the other hand, is not only permtited, it is required, even in
public. >>>

I think one of his strongest points was <<< 6. Moreover, at Orah Hayyim
282:14, the Magen Avraham writes that on Shabbat Hazon the rabbi is
called up to recite the haftarah "because he knows how to lament"
(she-hu yodea lekonen) (see Mishna Berura 282:31). >>>

Akiva Miller

From: Oren Popper <OPOPPER@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:14:47 -0400
Subject: RE: Aliyos in VaEschanan

I find it notable, that Lubavitch has the same custom as the GRO. In
Lubavitch too, the availus is not brought into Shabbos. Sheini of
BaMidbor begins with Eicha and the haftora is read in a regular haftorah

There are some other similarities between the p'sakim and minhagim of
the GRO and of Lubavitch. Most commonly known is the way a day is
calculated (netz 'till shkia) and hence zman krias shma. If I'm not
mistaken, the GRO also paskens like the Alter Rebbe regarding the psukim
between Hashkivenu and Shmone Esre, they should not be said since they
are a Hefsek.

Oren Popper

From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:43:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Meat during the 9 days / "Glatt Yacht"

Regarding meat restaurants:
This was apparently a shaila asked (I believe that I heard this on a rabbi
Frand tape discussing the parameters of Lifnei Ivair) and the response was
that it was NOT "Lifnei Ivair" to be open.
The factors inlcuded:
The presence of Goyim who could eat meat.
The presence of sefardim who could eat meat.
the availablility of meat from other locations.

Given those factors, there was no obligaiton for the owner(s) to take a
financial loss by not serving meat.

In the case of Glatt Yacht, it seems that since there would NOT be any
other "opportunity" of "mixed dancing", to enable to event *would* be (at
the least) a serious problem of Lifnei Ivair. (This -- in addition to the
other factors already cited.)
BTW, I am not sure that there is a heter for public mixed dancing even if
it is restricted to married couples... One item that comes to mind is that
some of the women may not be tehoros at the time -- but be a bit
"ill at ease" publicizing their status by sitting out all of the dances...
Also, what happens if a husband asks another woman to dance ... would the
dancing be halted??



From: Richard Wolpoe <richard_wolpoe@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:03:47 -0400
Subject: Meat During the nine days

>>In terms of Richard Wolpoe's question about meat during the 9 days,
aside from the possibility that the patrons he saw had held a siyum,
again we are dealing with a minhag, in fact one that has been much
amplified over the years.  The original halacha was to not eat meat or
drink wine at the final meal before Tisha B'Av.  That was since expanded
to the entire day before Tisha B'Av, then the week of Tisha B'Av, and
finally the entire nine days.  (In fact, I believe many communities only
adopted as far as the "week-of" minhag, so the folks Richard saw last
week may have had that practice.)  In any case, I will go out on a limb
and opine that the importance of judging people favorably during the
nine days and all year round, is of much greater importance than when to
avoid eating meat.

The supposition that Minhag Ashkenaz is ONLY an extension of what the
Talmud Bavli says is IMHO faulty.  As I've stated in previous posts,
Minhag Ashkenaz is rooted in an independent Mesorah (oral traditionn).
Now it might be true that this minhag to extend the strignencies did
evolve in a later era, but citing a Gemoro does not in itself PROVE that
to be the case.

It is often the case that Ashkenazim had chumros not cited by the
Talmud.  Kitniyos (legunmes) is another case in point. Unless one can
show that early ashkenazim were lenient re: the nine days, I would
assume that its roots are pre-Rishonic, and not a late-breaking chumro.

Rich Wolpoe


From: Ken G. Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:21:32 -0400
Subject: RE: Music during the three weeks

In MJ 29:15, Elie Rosenfeld wrote: <<< Those who do allow recorded music
certainly have a leg to stand on, since a) obviously, the only type of music
prohibited in the original minhag was live music >>>

According to this logic, "the only type of music prohibited in the
original minhag" was music which was produced by musical instruments
which had already existed when the minhag began. It would not include
more recent instruments, such as the electric guitar or
computer-generated music, or even recently-invented NON-electric
instruments. If these newer instruments ARE included, then a radio or
tape-recorder should also be considered to be a forbidden
music-producing instrument. If the distinction is that the forbidden
instruments have a live person selecting the notes to play, operating
the instrument in real-time, then I suppose a player piano or
non-electric music box would be allowed.

Elie Rosenfeld also wrote: <<< People have the radio on all the time, so
hearing non-live music is too commonplace to be a big deal, >>>
Actually, I would expect this logic to forbid such music all year long,
since we have become like kings who are always surrounded by music.

Akiva Miller


From: David Zilberberg <ZilbeDa@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:00:22 -0400
Subject: RE: Regarding Hilchot Shabbos

Maren Friedman <scarecrow4@...> wrote:

<hi.  my name is maren friedman and i have a few questions.  i have
often asked questions regarding an aruv, a shabbos goy, and a shabbos
elevator, and have since found not one explanation that i have
considered to suite me.>

First, whether or not something is in the spirit of shabbos is not a
straightforward as your positng suggests.  Why is taking an elevator or
relying on an eruv not shobbosdik?  You suggest that walking up steps is
somehow in the spririt of shabbos. What about the use of a manual
elevator- is that not shabbosdik?  It might be argued that the use an
shabbos elevator, halakhic issues aside, rather than climbing steps
actually enhances the "shvisa" aspect of shabbos.

Second, you should not feel at all uncomfortable about relying on an
eruv on shabbos.  Eruv is a time-honored institution firmly based in
halakha.  The rishonim endorsef their contruction duroing the medieval
times, and would even put into charem those that would doubt the
legitmacy of eruvim.  The Baal shem tov as well strongly encouraged
their contruction and taught is desciples to do so as well.
Furthermore, the use of an eruv greatly enhances the shabbos experience.
It allows mother with small children to accompany their husbands and
older children to shul on shabbos transforming shabbos devaning into
something for the enitre jewish community.  The baby carraige gridlock
outside the Riverdal Jewish Center on shabbos mornings indicates how
many mother and children take advantage of the oppurtunity to go to
shul. It also allows parents of small shildren to enjoy shabbos walks
instead of staying being stuck indoors all day.  WThe possibility of
abusing the eruv is real.  I heard that at one time, an eruv wa approved
in boro park by R.Menashe Klein, but the Debraciner Rav outlawed it
after its first shabbos of operation because people were picking up
newspapers from newstands and doing other things which werre not in the
spirit of shabos.  But it doesnt seem that the problems is with tthe
eruv per se but rather with how people use it.


From: Daniel Israel <daniel@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:37:23 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Meat during Nine Days

Mike Gerver <MJGerver@...> wrote:
> There is a heter for travellers to eat meat during the nine days.

I heard this elsewhere recently, but I've never seen it inside.  Can you
tell me the source for this?

Daniel M. Israel
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:16:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: VIHI NOAN on Saturday Night=MAGAN AVOTH on Friday Night

Akiva Miller (v29n01) asks why Magen Avoth is only said on Friday night.
Indeed, if the purpose of saying it is to make sure that latecomers don't
go home by themselves why not have a similar procedure on Saturday night
for the latecomers.

Two points may be made:
---On weekdays people didn't usually come to shule..(So those who did come
came on time--See Kesef Mishnah)

---I would appear to me that we say VIHI NOAM and ATAH KADOSH on
Saturday night for the same reason that we say Magen Avoth on Friday night
I infer this from the fact that the Rambam (prayer 9:10-14) combines
in the same set of paragraphs both (a) the requirement to say Magen Avoth
on Friday night as well as (b) the requirement to say "the order of the
day"(=Vihi Noam and Attach Kadosh) on Saturday night.

So I assume the reason for Magen Avoth extends to VIHI NOAM.

In passing I wonder if people have heard other reasons why VIHI NOAM is
said Saturday night.

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d; ASA; <rjhendel@...>;http://www.shamas.org/rashi


End of Volume 29 Issue 19