Volume 29 Number 26
                 Produced: Fri Jul 30  5:42:38 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Babies and Basar v'Chalav (2)
         [Carl M. Sherer, Ruth Tenenholtz]
Cancer in Israel (was: Operation Refuah)
         [Eliyahu & Sarah Shiffman]
Operation Refuah (2)
         [Moshe Feldman, Yehuda and Rebecca Poch]
Orthodox Black Jews
         [Bob Kosovsky]
Software request
         [Louise Miller]
Sugya index by Amora?
         [Alexander Heppenheimer]
         [Janet Rosenbaum]


From: Carl M. Sherer <csherer@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:10:58 +0300
Subject: Babies and Basar v'Chalav

Michael Rogovin writes:

> I am curious how other parents handle the following issues of basar and
> chalav with infants: (1) high chair trays (infants inevitably eat food
> off the tray) 

When our eldest was born some 15.5 years ago, we also struggled with
this issue. Eating the food off the tray is the least of it - if you
give your child a fork and spoon they may well dig it into a tray that
still has food remnants on it! Now you're talking about your own cutlery
and not just about a baby who might eat milk and meat together!

Because we both knew we would feel uncomfortable with a heter in this
area, we never asked for one. And so, when we bought our first high
chair, we bought a second tray to go with it, so that one would be
milchig and one would be fleischig.

What about Pesach? Until we made aliya, we never made Pesach at home, so
it was not an issue. When we made aliya eight years ago, we bought an
Israeli high chair (which takes up less room anyway), for which we
bought FOUR trays (milchig chametz, fleischig chametz, milchig Pesach
and fleischig Pesach). We still use our original American high chair
when we have guests with small children, and because of that, we also
kasher that chair's trays for Pesach.

(2) feeding milk following meat, 
(3) feeding milk in the
> same meal context or even together with meat.  

We do not feed babies milk together with meat (which I believe would
violate the issur hanaa (prohibition of having benefit from) basar
v'chalav (milk and meat together)), but we do not make them wait any
specific amount of time after eating meat. This is easier for us than it
may be for other people because Adina nurses our children for longer
than most other women nurse their children (three of our children nursed
for eighteen months or longer; only one nursed for less than a
year). Therefore most of our children never had milk-based formulas.

Once children are old enough to be aware of the distinction between milk
and meat, I think it's important to tell them, "we're flieschig now, so
you can't have ice cream, etc.," but with a young child I don't see any
need to make them wait a given amount of time (especially since we wait
six full hours), since they would not understand it anyway.

I should add that this assumes no MEDICAL requirement for the child to
have milk and meat together. We have friends in the States whose child
had digestive problems and was required to have a special formula called
Neutramagen (sp?), which as I recall was both basar v'chalav and
treif. They were told that the child could have it, but I believe they
were also told to keep the child's utensils separate from everything
else and to throw them out once the child outgrew the need for the
formula. Obviously, in such a case, CYLOP.

-- Carl M. Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. 
Thank you very much.

From: Ruth Tenenholtz <ruthaifa@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:33:49 +0300
Subject: Re: Babies and Basar v'Chalav

shalom Michael-
 if the baby is breastfed there is no problem. mother's milk as far as I
know is not dairy.  therefore it pays to nurse the child for as long as
possible (2 years at least).  since milchic formula is not good for
infants anyhow, the best solution is to use a parve substitute which is
readily available today and extremely nutritious.  then the meat/milk
dilemma also no longer exists.
 with the high chair conundrum it is easy enough to get either two trays
when you purchase the chair or use a cover for meat/milk and moreover,
since the food is not hot and the tray washable, I doubt there is even a
problem of taref.
 if you have only one tray and want to be makpid it is easy to take some
velcro and cut a placemat down to the right size and use it for
milk/meat as you like and keep the tray clean.
 finally since there is such a minhag as one hour between milk and meat
- as I keep- since I am a Dutch Jew- this is something an infant may be
able to observe fairly easily and early on.

Ruth Tenenholtz


From: Eliyahu & Sarah Shiffman <shiffman@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:01:16 +0200
Subject: Cancer in Israel (was: Operation Refuah)

I am happy to report that I have it on good authority that Carl Sherer's
info on the incidence of cancer in Israel is quite incorrect.

Carl wrote:

> The incidence of
> childhood brain tumors in Eretz Yisrael is more than double the
> rate in the United States, and the incidence of breast cancer in
> middle-aged women here is somewhere between one in four and
> one in three, which is also a much higher rate than in the United
> States. <snip> the fact
> remains that at least in Eretz Yisrael there is a higher percentage
> of people suffering from these diseases than before and elsewhere.

I asked oncologist Prof. Raffi Catan of Shaare Zedek Medical Center in
Jerusalem how Israel's rate of childhood brain tumors compares to that
of the US. His answer: "more or less the same." I asked him how Israel's
rate of breast cancer, particularly in the case of middle-aged women,
compares to that of the US. Again, his answer was "more or less the

Operation Refuah was quoted as implying that the rate of disease and
tragedies among the Jewish people is increasing of late, and Mark
Feldman wondered whether in fact we are just hearing about more
tragedies because of e-mail and Internet. Operation Refuah's statement
was too vague and general to be proven right or wrong, but I asked
Prof. Catan what was happening to the rate of cancer in the Western
world over the last few years. He said that in general the incidence of
cancer has stayed stable over the last 70 years, with the significant
exception of lung cancer, the rate of which has risen dramatically
during that period.

Although the incidence of cancer has not changed, it is my understanding
that we have gotten much better at curing certain cancers in recent
years (although I did not address this issue with the professor). So in
this sense the incidence of tragedies is in fact decreasing.

Eliyahu Shiffman


From: Moshe Feldman <mfeldman@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:50:21 -0400
Subject: re:  Operation Refuah

Carl Sherer wrote:
> Mark Feldman (who I assume is the same person as Moshe Feldman :-) [yup!!] 
> <snip> But, percentagewise, are there *more* people suffering?
> I don't know if it's true around the globe, but rachmana litzlan I can 
> tell you that it is true here in Eretz Yisrael. The incidence of 

I don't want to sound insensitive.  Clearly, we should provide both 
spiritual and physical help for those who suffer from the diseases that 
Carl mentioned.  Nevertheless, I question whether, when *all* diseases are 
examined, whether it is correct to state, "It is no secret that every 
Jewish community around the world is being hit with terrible tragedies."  
Are people dying earlier now than they did 30 years ago?  Is the *total* 
life expectancy (i.e., not for the specific diseases Carl mentioned) for 
Israelis different than for Americans?  Israelis may be at greater risk for 
certain cancers while Americans are (I'm guessing based on the rates of 
obesity) at greater risk for heart disease.  (I do recall reading some 
article that total life expectancy in Israel is comparable to that of the 
United States.)

My point is: before OR makes these statements, it should do some sort of 
statistical study.  Until it does, I will stick with my guess that with the 
advent of e-mail and the web, we are able, more than ever before, to hear 
about many Jews all over the world who are, rachmana litzlan, suffering 
from illness.  But I doubt that, percentagewise, there are *more* people 

Kol tuv,
Moshe Feldman

From: Yehuda and Rebecca Poch <butrfly@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:07:41 +0300
Subject: Operation Refuah

I have been moderating the internet's largest cholim list for the past 5
years. This list was first on Jerusalem One/Virtual Jerusalem, and is
now on Project Genesis (torah.org).  In the past 5 years I have included
on the cholim list around 5000 names of people who were in need of
tefillot.  Some are chronic, and some were for only a few weeks.

In the first 3-4 years of the list's operation, the listing grew from an
initial 10 names on the list to around 100 in a busy month.  Today there
are in excess of 300 names on the list each and every month, sometimes
in excess of 400.  People often tell me why a name is being posted.  In
the first 3 years or so of the list's operation, most of the names were
generally elderly people or people suffering long term but not acute

In the last 18 months, however, the number of children, babies, young
parents, newly married people, etc. on the list has skyrocketed.  Such
people have been injured or killed in house fires, traffic accidents,
random shootings or anti-semitic acts.  Others have contracted terminal
diseases such as cancer at very young ages.  In the past three weeks, I
received notice of a young rabbi's wife who was suddenly diagnosed with
cancer one week, and died the next.  The number of orphaned children as
a result of all this tragedy is staggering.  The number of children who
fall direct victim to such tragedy is also mind-boggling.

I fully support the efforts of Operation Refuah, and I publicize their
activities through the cholim list.  There is no question in my mind,
internet and greater publicity notwithstanding, that there has been an
increase in the level of tragedy the Jewish nation as a whole has been
suffering the past 18 months or so.  But even if this were not the case,
there is nothing wrong with participating in the efforts of Operation
Refuah lishma (for its own benefit), ie doing more mitzvos in an effort
to curb illness and suffering among our people.  More such efforts
should be undertaken regardless of the amount of suffering we are going

    \ ^ || ^ /       Yehuda and Rebecca Poch	    \ ^ || ^ /
     >--||--<       Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel	     >--||--<
    / v || v \         <butrfly@...>	    / v || v \


From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:45:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Orthodox Black Jews

Recently I've had e-mail from an orthodox African-American Jew, who told
me of several organizations for black Jews.  He gave me the web page for
one of these, from which I found a more general web site:


After a bit of web searching I came to realize there were quite a number
of groups devoted to building black Jewish communities on the Internet.

However, I feel very uncomfortable regarding the status of these groups.
In none of the websites I observed was I able to find any evidence of
acceptance of rabbinic authority or tradition.  That makes me

While I have no problem with sites that want to view "being Jewish" as a
cultural phenomenon (something inherited from either father or mother,
as apparently many American Jews do), I'm interested in whether there
are any groups or organizations of *orthodox* black Jews.

Can anyone tell me of any such groups?

Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music                 Librarian
Graduate Center                               Music Division
City University of New York                   The New York Public Library
<kos@...>                                  bkosovsky@nypl.org


From: Louise Miller <daniel@...>
Subject: Software request

I received this request from my sister:

Do you have (or know about) a full-text Chumash that is:

1. machine readable (the user wants to cut and paste into Word)
2. *Includes trop* - (that's the tricky part)
3. In Hebrew (don't laugh- I've found lots of Chumashim
   that fit the criteria but are in English!).

What he needs is a full page as if it's scanned from like a tikkun
sofrim, but machine readable and searchable.  A page that is simply
scanned in in not searable and readable.

If you have an idea, please let me know.


Chana Lajcher - Reference Librarian
Jerusalem College of Technology- Machon Lev
Jerusalem, Israel


From: Alexander Heppenheimer <Alexander.Heppenheimer@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:29:53 -0600
Subject: Re: Sugya index by Amora?

Shlomo Argamon asked:

>Does anyone know if there exists any kind of index (even partial) of
>sugyas in the Gemara by which Tanaim/Amoraim said what?

You might try Toledos Tanna'im VaAmora'im, by R' Aharon Hyman; he has
brief biographies of each personality (even the really obscure ones!) in
the Gemara, along with a list of his statements. I'm not sure, though,
whether those lists are complete; in fact, in the case of Amoraim such
as Abbaye and Rava, who are mentioned thousands of times, I think he
lists only the better-known sugyos. Still, it might be a start.

Kol tuv y'all,


From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:05:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re:  Wine

> The issur of wine handled by a non-jew today is different than the issur
> in the times of the Gemorah. In those days the issur was because of
> Yayin Nesach.(wine prepared for idol worship). Nowadays, the issur is
> Stam Yayin.  

The way the issue of wine was originally explained to me was in terms of
yayin nesach --- that non-Jews might have poured a libation with it (and
apparently all good pagans on touching a bottle would flick a drop in
such a way to thereby consecrate the entire bottle.)

What exactly is the concern with stam yayin?  Is it the small risk that
it could have been so tainted, or is the issue analogous to that of
non-Jewish bread?



End of Volume 29 Issue 26