Volume 29 Number 36
                 Produced: Tue Aug  3  6:26:48 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

9 Av conversing
         [Yisrael Medad]
Adon Olam
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Disposal of missionary material
         [Zev Gerstl]
Feeding Children
         [Gershon Dubin]
High Yeshiva Tuition vs Chinuch
         [Russell Hendel]
Hotel Door Locks
         [Harvey Lieber]
Kennedy Curse
         [Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer]
Missing Person
         [Anthony L. (Tony) Zak]
Pshat vs Teitch (translation) - was Shir Hashirim & Megillas Esther
         [Joseph Geretz]
Rabbi Hirsch Isenberg z"l
         [Daniel Stuhlman]
South Park
         [Stan Tenen]
Worrying All Week
         [Carl and Adina Sherer]
Z"L Gender Based??
         [Yossie Abramson]
Web Sites and halacha
         [Linda Franco]


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:53:31 +0300
Subject: 9 Av conversing 

On this Tisha B'Av, I came into Yerushalayim at about noon and stopping
off at my office, I passed the Tztiz Eliezer (Rav Eliezer Waldenberg)
who was standing at the entrance of his apartment (the apartment I use
for an office is practically next-door to him).

I raised my hand is greeting and nodded my head but made it obvious that
I wasn't going to say anything.  He raised his hand and nodded in reply
but also said nothing.  As we usually exchange polite pleasantries, I
presume that he agreed with me that the extent of greeting on Tisha B'Av
is more in the realm of speech (refraining from saying Shalom, for

Yisrael Medad


From: Shmuel Himelstein <shmuelh@...>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:51:03 +0300 
Subject: Adon Olam

As is commonly known, Yigdal parallel's Rambam 13 Principles of the
Faith.  Does anyone know if Adon Olam is based on any other parallel

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Zev Gerstl <zgerstl@...>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:34:45 +0200
Subject: Disposal of missionary material

A few years ago the disposal of missionary material containing quotes
from the Tannach was discussed. Could someone please remind me of what
to do with a book, entirely in English, which contains numerous
translated quotes. If I remember correctly it can be disposed of as
garbage but I'd like to be sure.
Zev Gerstl


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 12:19:33 -0400
Subject: Feeding Children

>We do not feed babies milk together with meat (which I believe would
>violate the issur hanaa [prohobotopn to have any benefit from something
- Mod.]
	The issur hanaa of basar bechalav [Meat and Milk - Mod.] is only
on an issur deoraisa. [Biblical prohibition - MOd.]  Therefore, mixing
without cooking together would n o t be ossur behanaa.



From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:36:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: High Yeshiva Tuition vs Chinuch

A colleage of mine on another email group privately wrote me about
difficulties he has had with registering his children in local yeshivoth
because of high tuition.

We corresonded for a while. I asked him, if he was so bitter why he
doesn't post this and he said he was embarassed.

So I am posting for him. Here are the questions?

a) How prevalant is it for children to be turned away from yeshivoth
because of high tuition

b) Is such a practice right, wrong or "it depends"

c) what steps if any could the jewish community take to avoid such
a situation.

d) In the meantime what should people like my colleague do with his

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA; Moderator Rashi is Simple;


From: Harvey Lieber <Lieber@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:02:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Hotel Door Locks

    Unfortunately most locks are electronic not magnetic.  With the
growing trend of hotels to use individual electronic cards I wonder if
some of the subscribers can suggest halachic strategies to deal with
    We have resorted to taping the lock on the inside when staying at a
hotel over Shabbat.  This way, unbeknownst to the outsider, the door is
really open.  Of course, that is the problem too!
    Halevai that synagogues had special arrangements, as does the
Georgetown Kesher Israel congregation with the nearby St. James Hotel ,
for a special floor with keys to the door.

Tsvi Lieber


From: David <das1002@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:23:40 +0100
Subject: Kennedy Curse

I am on an email list called 'oxford-judaism', on which essays by Rabbi
Shmuley Boteach, author and director of the L'Chaim Society
(http://www.lchaim.org) are sent out, together with information about the
L'Chaim Society. The latest essay, sent out this week, was about the
'Kennedy Curse', and I thought it may be of interest with regards to this
discussion here.

You can find it at: http://www.shamash.org/listarchives/oxford-judaism/990727

Shabbat Shalom,



From: Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer <sbechhof@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 11:52:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: MiShebeirachs

Occasionally you wander into a Shul where they make the "additional"
monetary MiShebeirach whether you ask for it or not. While even if you
answer amen, you may not be responsible to give a donation, it stands to
reason that if you, the oleh, do not answer amen you certainly are off the
hook. I believe there is are those who find a parallel to the MiShebeirach
on the BH"B fasts.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
<ygb@...>, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


From: Anthony L. (Tony) Zak <anthonylzak@...>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 15:12:53 -0400
Subject: Missing Person

	I am responding to mail-jewish Vol. 28 #62. [Looking for
information on whereabouts of a person - Mod]

	Go to <http://www.ancestry.com>.  This is a free site maintained
by the Mormons who for their own theological reasons place a great deal
of importance on genealogic information.  In spite of their motivation,
they have a lot of data including data from the Social Security system.
Unfortunately, finding something on their site means the person died.

	Go <http://www.docusearch.com> which is useful for those who are
probably still alive.

	If you know when Dr. Greenfield was born you'll find that you
can do a more precise search and eliminate individuals with the same

	I hope this helps.

/s/ Anthony L. (Tony) Zak


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:52:53 -0400
Subject: Pshat vs Teitch (translation) - was Shir Hashirim & Megillas Esther

Pshat vs Teitch (translation) - was Shir Hashirim & Megillas Esther

Alexander Heppenheimer  wrote:
>...sometimes the peshat lies on the surface, other times it is buried
>deeper (i.e., the events described are allegorical) - and in all cases,
>we must consult the commentaries to see which is the case.

Ellen Krischner responded:
> Is this the general view of folks on the list?  I was always led to
> believe that peshat always means "what the words say".

I've got to concur with Alexander's point of view. Especially in view of
Pesukim (e.g. Ayin Tachas Ayin - an eye for an eye) whose literal
translation would mandate putting out the eye of one who had damaged the
eye of another individual. Of course we are all aware that the oral
tradition emphatically states that this is NOT the case and that the
Pasuk is referring to monetary restitution of the value of the eye.

Therefore, often, simple translation is not enough to give us even a
simple understanding of the intent of the Pasuk and we must rely on the

Of what value then is the simple translation in these cases? The simple
translation suffices to target us toward the Pshat as explained by the
commentators. Thus Ayin Tachas Ayin clearly mandates that some sort of
equitable restitution must be made. The commentators explain to us that
the restitution is monetary. Similarly, Shir HaShirim is clearly
depicting a loving relationship. The commentators explain that the
loving relationship depicted is the love of G-d toward Israel and vice
versa. Just as the simple translation of Ayin Tachas Ayin, 'an eye for
an eye' has no value if not placed in context of the commentators
explanation, similarly the simple translation of the metaphoric language
of Shir Hashirim has no value unless it is understood in the context of
the commentators explanation.

Kol Tuv,

Yossi Geretz


From: Daniel Stuhlman <ssmlhtc@...>
Subject: Rabbi Hirsch Isenberg z"l

It is my sad duty to report that Rabbi Hirsch (Tzvi) Isenberg, father of
HTC Chancellor Rabbi Dr. Jerold Isenberg and JUA Dean Rabbi Avraham
Isenberg, passed away on July 29.

He was a teacher for many years at the Ida Crown Jewish Academy, Hebrew
Theological College and Jewish University of America.

The funeral was on Friday July 30 in Chicago.

Daniel D. Stuhlman
Hebrew Theological College - Saul Silber Memorial Library
7135 N Carpenter Road, Skokie, IL  60077
847-982-2500 - <Mailto:<ssmlhtc@...>


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 07:58:30 -0700
Subject: South Park

Last night my wife and I happened to watch the Comedy Channel because we
were staying where that was part of the cable service.  They were
showing South Park, a satirical cartoon series.  We didn't see it from
the beginning.  The story was about Jewish campers and scouts, at a
"Jewbilee".  Part of the action included people looking like rabbis or
priests worshipping a "great talking flame" called "Moses."  Part of the
message was clearly that Jews worship Moses like Christians worship
Jesus, etc.  The closing credits went by unexpectedly, but there were
Jewish names.

This was extremely disturbing, because it was done with humor, and
because it was so utterly, outrageously wrong.  I can imagine secular
kids and Christian kids being taught that Jews worship Moses.  There
were other improprieties also.

I don't know if there's any point in doing anything about this.  There
is, of course, free speech, but this was an even worse representation of
Judaism than that presented by the Jews for Jesus.  I don't suppose too
many people on this list have seen this sort of thing, but it seems to
be fairly common these days for people who think they're being friendly
to Jews to create ignorant works that grossly misrepresent Jewish belief
and practice.

Any comments?  Any ideas? Has anyone else seen this stuff?  

One more note.  I did catch a few moments of an earlier episode, which I
dismissed because the context was so short, but it seemed to include a
person who was obviously Jewish, wearing a kippa, and acting as an
utterly socially irresponsible (greedy, etc.) lawyer-type.  It was also
offensive, but I only caught about five minutes.

Meru Foundation   http://www.meru.org   <meru1@...>


From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:10:15 +0300
Subject: Worrying All Week

Eliyahu Hoffman writes:

> NOW - what will be the din if one mistakenly began Ata Chonein, and
> immediately --- almost by reflex --- said "Ata Kidashta...." What should
> he do - does he still go back and say "Ata Chonein", or does he continue
> with "Ata Kidashta". This has happened to me. It's quite natural to
> correct yourself automatically --- almost without thinking.

The Mishna Brura asks this very question in Biur Halacha 268 s"v
"v'Shelo b"Kavanah," and, assuming you actually had in mind to say a
Shabbos Shmoneh Esrei, he leaves it unresolved.

The Aruch HaShulchan OH 268:6 would go even further and say that even if
you were several words into Atta Chonen, you should still stop the
Bracha and say the Bracha of Shabbos if you knew it was Shabbos.

See also Ishei Yisrael Chapter 37, footnote 8 which brings both of the
opinions above. Then CYLOP.

-- Carl M. Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.


From: Yossie Abramson <yossie@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 21:37:50 -0400
Subject: Z"L Gender Based??

>From: Benjamins <benjams@...> As we grow older we
>unfortunately have more and more opportunities to use the expressions
>zichrono livracha and aleha hashalom.  I usually hear these expressions
>in those respective genders (z"l for deceased men and ah"s for deceased
>women), but not always.  Could someone share the source of this
>gender-based distinction, if it in fact exists?  B. Benjamin

There really is no gender-based distinction. Z"L could stand for Zichrono
Livrocha OR Zichrona Livrocha. It's just a different meaning than A"H.
One is that the rememberance should be for good, and A"H is a wish that
the neshoma should rise closer to Hashem.



From: Linda Franco <Fauveism@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 08:52:09 EDT
Subject: Web Sites and halacha

Any thoughts on putting together a web site, and being aware of halachic 
I run a web site for a Jewish Infertility organization. And, there are lots 
of links to informative medical resources, as well as Jewish MEdical ethical 
I was told by a Rav that we shouldnt be linking to any harmful doctor sites. 
i.e.,If there is a doctor that has helped people, we are allowed to link to 
their site.
We are responsible for where the links go to, for our fellow Jews. We are 
forbidden to link anythng harmful, because "A Stumbing block, do not put in 
front of a blind man."
In other words...don't lead people to harmful resources.
Any thought on any other Halachot that would apply to webmasters?

Kol Tov
Linda Franco
Brooklyn, NY


End of Volume 29 Issue 36