Volume 29 Number 58
                 Produced: Thu Aug 19  6:26:29 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Cost of Yeshiva tuition
         [Zvi Weiss]
Does the molad ever occur after Rosh Chodesh?
         [Yisrael Medad]
Explaining Yesh Me'Ayin to a 6 year old
         [Stan Tenen]
         [Yisrael Medad]
Posthumous honorifics
         [Gershon Dubin]
saying ZTL  For Women
         [Russell Hendel]
Similarities in Niggun
         [I. Harvey Poch]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:04:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia

OK, it looks like the listproc problem is solved, and the mail should look
like it is coming from me now. One impact of the incorrect address on the
last 7 or 8 issues is that if you did a reply to the message, your mailer
may have sent the message to <mhpower@...>, not
<mljewish@...> This name change was a one way thing, i.e. listproc
used mhpower for all outgoing mail, but the mail system did not care about
that, so all mail sent to mhpower went to Matt. Meaning, I did not get it. 
So anyone that submitted over the last few days and used reply and did not
change the To: address, if you have a copy of your email saved, you
probably want to resend it to me. 

Sorry about these problems, but as I said above, I think they are all
fixed now.

Avi Feldblum 
mail-jewish Moderator 


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:24:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cost of Yeshiva tuition

> From: A.J.Gilboa <bfgilboa@...>
> I believe that some yeshivot in the US charge graduated fees according
> to the unbiased recommendations of independent assessors. Assuming that
> the potential clients provide the true facts about their income and
> property, this should divide the load equitably. In addition, needy
> parents of students with excellent academic achievements can be given
> cash prizes at the end of each school year, to help cover the expense of
> the following year.

 The problem -- though -- comes up in Yeshivot where a disproportionate
number of families are "poor".  Dividing it "equitably" may still leave
the tuition too high.. (e.g., 90% of the families have incomes of
<$50,000 and have 6 or more children.  Now, if the total budget of the
Yeshiva were $100,000 [a not unreasonable figure when including
utilities and salaries and other necessary expenses, we might determine
that the "real" cost per child was $3500.  If 90% are as described
above, there is no place to spread the load unless you are going to
charge the few "wealthy" people something like $7000 per child ... And,
if the "wealthy" have approx. 6 or more children, is it reasonable to
charge them bills of $21,000 to $35,000?)

> I have heard that some Jewish leaders in the US have suggested that the
> entire Jewish community should raise funds to guarantee that no Jewish
> child be deprived of a Jewish education because of high tuition fees.
> Perhaps this is already done in part by financial support to yeshivot
> from general charity funds such as Federation?

 Halevai that it should happen? How many Federations contribute
SERIOUSLY toward Yeshivot??



From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:09:12 +0300
Subject: Does the molad ever occur after Rosh Chodesh?

I passed the original posting on to my neighbor Prof. Ely Merbach
who received the following answer from his colleague, Yaakov Loewinger
(a bit roundabout but knowledge you gotta work for)
Yisrael Medad

>Please find enclosed answers to your questions by my friend Loewinger.
>Prof. Ely Merzbach, Dean, Faculty of Exact Sciences, Bar-Ilan University

> From: Jonathan Grodzinski <JGrodz@...>
> There is to be a total eclipse of the sun on Wednesday 11th August in
> England during the morning and it will pass through France Luxembourg,
> The Balkans, Turkey, Iran etc
> Now, I understand that a solar eclipse can only occur at a New Moon,

near to the apparent (= true) astronomical conjunction of Sun and Moon
on the ecliptic. In Israel the midpoint of the eclipse( ~14:41 IDT=
Israel Daylight saving Time ) will occur approx. 1/2 hour later as the
true conjunction (~ 14:08 IDT) ( mainly because of the parallax of the

> and a lunar eclipse at a Full Moon. So one starts to think how this
> does or does not connect with the molad, and what indeed is the molad?

see my hebrew article  : Sheloshet Sugge ha- Moladot, Sinai 118,  Vol. 59,
Jerusalem , 5756, pp.71-86.

> At the time of the fixing of Rosh Chodesh "al pi haReiyah" by sighting
> the new moon, Rosh Chodesh could only occur after the Molad

near to one  or more days after the true conjunction.

> (being the instant that the New Moon appeared

Rosh Hodesh( and not the true molad = conjunction) was  declared to fall
on the day, beginning  at sighting of  the Moon, if the witnesses were
approved, or Bet Din declared New Moon day without witnesses.

> - or was it the instant before when there was no moon visile at all?)

as said, true conjunction was one or more days before the sighting.

> In recording the time for the molad, the classic definition starts the
> day at 6.00 pm Jerusalem time (that is not the time that we currently
> use in Jerusalem which I believe is Cairo

Better: Alexandria Local  Mean Time

the molad of the calendar is nowadays near to ( some 2 hours after ) the
astronomical mean conjunction in Jerusalem. See my above article.

the time between two moladot of the hebrew calendar is 29:12:793, as
said, but the correct astronomical value is in our time near to half a
second less. See above article.

> . I believe that it was calculated

*** in ancient times

> by dividing the elapsed time between two eclipses by the number of
> elapsed months,

*** correct

> The only month whose start is now (under the fixed calendar method)
> determined by the calculated molad, is that of Tishrei

*** or Nisan

> Rosh Hashanah will be on the day of the molad unless the molad is
> after 18 hours (noon) - called "molad yashan"

Better :Molad Zaqen

> Can any molad occur after Rosh Chodesh?

No, by no means, never !!!

> My guess is that if Molad Tishrei is very late (but before 18 hours) on
> a Monday, Tuesday Thursday or Friday, and both Cheshvan and Kislev are
> 29 days, then molad Tevet

better : Shevat in a deficient leap year ( Heshvan , Kislev 29 days),
with the characteristics: Bet- Het- He or Zayyin-Het- Gimmel. But even
in such years, when Molad can fall near to to end of Rosh Hodesh day ,
it can never fall after Rosh Hodesh !!!  See in" table of four gates"
that in a deficient year Rosh Hashana can never fall on the day of the
molad , but it is always postponed', at least one day.

> will be the earliest

you mean : in such a year the Molad of Shevat will be the latest, after
the beginning of Rosh Hosed day.

> If I am correct, can anyone give an example of molad Tevet or any other
> Molad occuring after Rosh Chodesh??

There can be no Mold after Rosh Hodesh in any month, in any kind of year of
the Hebrew calendar !

Yaaqov  Loewinger
e-mail  : <judith@...>


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:36:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Explaining Yesh Me'Ayin to a 6 year old

In m-j Vol. 29 #48, Micha Berger wrote:

>Actually, we do NOT believe G-d always existed. We believe that G-d's 
>existence is "beyond" time. "Always existed" implies that G-d is subject to 
>time, but His age is infinite.

This is not for the six-year-old, but there is a more cogent and
technically solid way to look at G-d v. Time.  

We have two most significant Names for G-d:  Hashem and Elokim.  

Hashem implies the nature of G-d that is always in the instantaneous moment.  
Elokim implies the nature of G-d that is eternal, with "eternal" in this
sense meaning "existent throughout all time."  
So in a sense, Elokim is "time-like".  There's a mathematical model that
displays these characteristics.  The Dirac delta function is an
instantaneous pulse (having no duration in time) with an infinite
amplitude.  Its transform (the harmonics that, if added together, would
re-constitute the pulse), is a spectrum of all possible frequencies,
existent over all time, from the infinite past to the infinite future.  If
the spectrum does not extend back to the truly infinite past, and/or does
not extend forward to the infinite future, then the resultant delta
function is distorted, less than infinite in amplitude, and extended in
time.  In other words, it's wrong.  

 From a mathematical perspective, the delta function is a good way to get a
sense of the infinite potency and instantaneous immediacy of Hashem.  Its
transform, a continuum of all possible vibrations, extending for all time,
is a good way to get a sense of the infinite inclusiveness of Elokim. 

There's much more to this than makes sense to submit here.  For more info,
ask and I'll send you a packet and it'll include "who holds by this."  

>I have no idea how to explain this distinction to a six year old. But then, 
>none of my kids realized the question could be shifted to "Who created 
>Hashem?"  at age six. Shep nachas!

Yes.  Definitely "Shep nachas!"  There are ways to explain the various
aspects of infinity and of the Transcendent nature of G-d to a young
person.  But first, it's sometimes necessary to enable a child to have a
sense of the mystery of the paradoxical.  A place to start, perhaps, is by
asking the child if they know the difference between truth and falsehood.
If they do, then ask them if the following sentence is true or false:
"This sentence is false."  Exploring this sort of paradox sets the stage
for the paradox of G-d's eternal and out-of-time nature.  It seems to me
that a child smart enough to ask the question might be smart enough to be
able to learn about paradox, true mystery, unknowability, and the like.  A
child that understood this at a young age would have the potential to use
it for the rest of their lives.  

Meru Foundation   http://www.meru.org   <meru1@...>


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:38:25 +0300
Subject: Microwave

I bring to the attention of the list a recent p'sak (in very abridged format)
by Rav Mordechai Eliyahu on the issue of microwave cooking stemming
from his treatment of the situation with an oven, as broadcast 
on his satellite-conveyed shi'ur and reprinted in his Kol Tzofayich 
weekly bulletin, No. 46, Parshat Re'eh:

1.  "Recently, there are Rabbis who have begun to go easy and permit baking
of milk products in an oven in which meat was cooked, from the din of 
'heitra bala'."
2.   He then touches on these topics: te'imat akum, bitul b'shishim, kisui
sir k'ne'or,
kolet eidim, zei'at nozel and zei'at mutzak.
3.   And then he summarizes in regards to a microwave which he considers
more stringently than an oven:
a.  different plates for meat and dairy
b.  24-hour wait in between
c.  clean the micro as with an oven with a wet cloth
d.  to boil a glass of water 
e.  wrap the food  

Any comments?


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:59:01 -0400
Subject: Posthumous honorifics

>  7)Another, even more elaborate appendage, is ztvkllh"h (zecher
> tzaddik vikadosh livrocho lichayei haolom habo). This seems to be
> gaining in popularity for leaders, initially among hassidim perhaps
> and spreading to others to a degree.
	I will not dispute your sociological analysis; however it should
be made clear that zichrono livrocho lechaye haolam haboh is the
preferred usage, for a parent, as mentioned in Kidushin 31b and codified
in Shulchan Aruch and commentaries.



From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:02:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: saying ZTL  For Women

A quick response to Jerome Parness who suggests (v29n47)

>Using such logic, I would presume that one should use the term Z"L, even
>Z"TZL, for Nechama Leibowitz, and Shlita for R. Chana Henkin.  I hope
>you all do...

Although I do not have a direct source to support him and although there
may be some grammatical technicalities to overcome nevertheless I bring
the following law in the Shulchan Aruch

	Just as we bring the coffin of a great scholar into a shule for
	a a eulogy so too we bring the coffin of a great woman into a
	shule for a eulogy.

We could infer/generalize from this that men and women should be treated
equally when it comes to honoring the dead

(The above law was cited at the funeral of My Maternal Grandmother may
she rest in peace whose works of charity helped found the Yeshiva where
she was eulogized--close to 1000 people came to the Eulogy).

Russell Hendel;<RJHendel@...>; Phd ASA
ModeratoR Rashi Is Simple


From: I. Harvey Poch <af945@...>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:01:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Similarities in Niggun

For what it's worth - my two cents on the similarity between Eli Tzion 
and b'nai bais'cho: the similarity of tunes extends only as far as three 
words in each song - "Eli Tzion ve'oreho" and "bnai bais'cho kevat'chilo" 
- and no further. So, in his own way, the anonymous chazzan was correct - 
the tunes do not match any further.

As we approach Rosh haShonoh, it is also interesting to point out that 
the traditional tune for the four words "Ato zocher ma'asei olom", which 
begin the zichronos section of the mussaf amidah, is identical to the 
regular Shabbos tune for the five words "Shochen Ad, morom vekodosh 
sh'mo". The exact parallel escapes me, but I'm sure it has to do with the 
fact that the Shochen Ad - G-D - is the only one who can remember the 
creation of the world (zocher ma'asei olom), as well as the events which 
followed until this day. May these memories encourage Him to inscribe us 
all for a healthy year, the ability to feed, shelter and raise our 
families, and for peace in Israel and throughout this world of His.

I. Harvey Poch  (8-)>


End of Volume 29 Issue 58