Volume 30 Number 01
                 Produced: Tue Nov  9 20:46:36 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat (7)
         [Jeff Fischer, David Ziants, Danny Schoemann, Michael Poppers,
Mike Stein, Neil Parks, Arie Weiss]
         [Mike Stein]
Entire Modim aloud (3)
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu, Aaron-Joseph Gilboa, Joel Rich]
Kah Kaili
         [Yisrael Medad]
Mi Sheberach
         [David I. Cohen]
Origin of the Word "Pareve"
         [Joseph Geretz]
         [Ari Kahn]
Parshas Haazinu as Segulah
         [Michael Berkovits]
Question about Machzor Yerushalayim
         [Yisrael Medad]
Women and kitl
         [Percy Mett]


From: Jeff Fischer <NJGabbai@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:30:08 EST
Subject: Re: Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat

>  As I was just asked to daven Arvit for the Chag, I was reminded of a
>  problem of the nusach.  Our schule has a declared policy of Ashkenaz for
>  Shabbat and Chaggim.  In my Galut schule in Queens
>  NY, Ashkenaz by any standard, the first two and the last two stanzas of
>  L'cha Dodi were said but here, they start off with Mizmor Shir claiming
>  that that custom was not Ashkenaz.  Can anyone help me out on this one?
>  What is the Ashkenaz custom - L'cha Dodi (4 out of 9) or not at all?

[What I think will be clear from the responses, is that it is probably
not correct to simply refer to "Minhag Ashkenaz", as there are likely to
have been somewhat different minhagim in different places. Mod.]

The Ashkenaz minhag when Yom Tov falls on Shabbos is to start with Mizmor 
Shir leyom HaShabbat and Hashem Moloch and then go to Borchu.

Gabbai of Young Israel of Passaic

From: David Ziants <davidz@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:53:23 +0200
Subject: Re: Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat

When Shabbat falls on Chag (whether Yom Tov or Chol HaMoed) the
Nusach Ashkenaz is to start from "Mizmor Shir", as in Yisrael
Medad's shul in Israel.

This is the correct Nusach Ashkenaz both in Israel and in Chutz La'aretz.

[Similar absolute statement from Aaron-Joseph Gilboa
<bfgilboa@...>. Mod.]

Nusach Sepharad (Chasidim) start from "Mizmor l'David", and say only part
of L'cha Dodi. Many ashkenazi modern orthodox shul's in Israel daven this
nusach, but this would be unacceptable to a shul that has a fixed Nusach

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

From: Danny Schoemann <dannys@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:42:57 +0200
Subject: Re: Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat

If you look into any Rodelheim machzor (except Kol Nidrei) you will see
that Nusach Ashkenaz is to always say the entire Kabalat Shabat (from
Lechu Neraneno !!) on every Friday night (Except Yom Kippur).

That was how they do it in the Adas Yeshurun of Johannesburg where I
grew up: A full Kabalat Shabbat even if it's a Yom Tov.

The local (Israeli) Litvishe custom in Yeshiva seems to be to start from
Mizmor Shir.

Hope this help

 Danny Schoemann
 Ramat Shlomo, Jerusalem

From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:22:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat

I can't speak for Ostjuden (Eastern European Ashkenazim), but the custom
in Frankfurt (and, possibly, in other German communities) was not to
deviate from the normal Friday-night services: L'chu N'Ran'na, all of
L'cha Dodi, and Bameh Madlikin (which, I might add, was said [when it
was said] *after* chazoras haSHaTZ, not before Bor'chu).


From: Mike Stein <mike@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:36:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat

One data point: In the nusach ashkenaz of Strasbourg and related
communities, the minhag is most definitely to say part of l'cha dodi
when yomtov or chol hamo'ed falls on erev shabbat.  Since this happened
only once or twice while I was there, I don't remember the exact
practice.  (One hazy recollection I have is that the whole l'cha dodi
was said, except for the verse "lo tevoshi"; another is that only a few
verses were said.  I can probably email friends there for a more exact
determination if anyone is interested.)

I learned in the year I spent among the "real" ashkenazim in
Strasbourg that the local definition of nusach ashkenaz does not
include the "ashkenazi" nuscha'ot of Eastern Europe (which they tend
to refer to as "Polish" minhag, or, sometimes, "Israeli").  That is
presumably why the shuls I know in the US do not say any part of l'cha
dodi under these circumstances.

Mike Stein

From: Neil Parks <nparks@...>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:59:21 
Subject: Re: Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat

In every Nusach Ashkenaz shul I have ever been in on a YomTov--which is
admittedly only a handful--the Kabolos Shabbos has always consisted
solely of Psalms 92 and 93.

Furthermore, in one shul (Young Israel of Beachwood), the sheliach
tzibbur who davens mincha remains at the ommud for those 2 psalms, and
the sh.tz.  for Maariv takes over after Mourner's Kaddish.  (But on all
other Friday nights, the sh.tz. who davens Kabolos Shabbos also davens
Maariv, just as in other shuls.)

From: Arie Weiss <aliw@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:50:45 +0000
Subject: Ashkenaz Nusach on Chag/Shabbat

In our shul in Ma'ale Adumim, which is "nusach ba'al hat'fila" we
nevertheless have certain rules which apply no matter the nusach of the
shliach tzibur. One of these is that on Shabbat/Yom Tov we always start
with mizmor l'david and not mizmor shir, and say the the first two and
last two stanzas of lecha dodi. This, to my best knowledge, is
acknowledged to be nusach s'fard, and skipping lecho dodi and starting
mizmor shir is acknowledged as nusach ashkenaz. T'fila K'hilchata uses
this differentiation as well.  

Arie Weiss


From: Mike Stein <mike@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:47:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Chover

In mail.jewish Volume 29 Number 94 Samson Bechhofer
<SBechhof@...> writes:

> Re. Paul Shaviv's post of 10/26, the Breuer's Kehilla in New York
> continues the tradition of according the title "chover" to its lay
> members.  During the early days of the Kehilla (40s and 50s) a young man
> received the title at his wedding from the Rav (so noted in the Kesubo)
> if his wife covered her hair and he was known to be Kove'ah Itim
> LaTorah. ....
> The Rav of the Kehilla has the option of giving the title to respected
> older men, usually on the occasion of their 60th or 70th birthday, or
> the marriage of a child or grandchild, provided the man's wife covers
> her hair.

In Strasbourg, the title "chover" is awarded by the Chief Rabbi to men
who have distinguished themselves in learning, sometimes along with
community service.  It is considered a great honor, and there are only a
small number of chaverim in the community.

Mike Stein


From: Gilad J. Gevaryahu <Gevaryahu@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:25:39 EST
Subject: Entire Modim aloud

Eliezer Finkelman (MJ29#93) states: <<

 In general, the Shaliah Tsibbur repeats every word of the Amidah at the
 morning...and afternoon services.  Nonetheless, there exists a
 widespread practice: that the Shaliah Tsibbur, in repeating the Amidah,
 reads only the first words and the last of the next to the last brakhah.
 He says, "Modim anahnu lakh" and then goes silent, presumably reading
 the rest of the paragraph, speaking out loud again at "HaTov." >>

Several years ago I was the sheliach tsibur in the minyan harabanim at
the Hagr"a shul in Sha'ari Chessed in Jerusalem. [By the time that I
figured out that it was minyan harabanim it was too late to opt out of
the Sha"tz and find an "amcha" minyan]. Well, in the repetition of the
amidah I did just as described above, that is, I started with "Modim
anachnu lach sha'ata hu..."  continued silently, waited a while and
finished aloud with "ha'tov ...".  After the tefilah Rabbi Shlomo Zalman
Auerbach called me aside and asked me why I did not say "Modim" aloud,
and I told him that I thought that the way I did it was the standard way
to say it. His answer was that those people who do not say the entire
"modim" aloud simply do not know the halacha, and that chazarat hashatz
must include the entire "Modim" aloud. One don't forget easily being
approached by g'dol hador on such an issue, and with such
gentleness. Well, I never said half a "Modim" ever again!

Gilad J. Gevaryahu

From: Aaron-Joseph Gilboa <bfgilboa@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:15:56 +0200
Subject: Re: Entire Modim aloud

Could this be a case of "tre qale la mishtam`e"? If the congregation is
reciting "modim d-rabbanan", can they really "hear" the hazzan?
Nevertheless, when I am shliah tsibbur, I recite the entire modim
aloud. Perhaps then it is for the benefit of those who cannot read modim
d'rabbanan, if there are such people. Those who can read, presumably
don't "really" need to hear hazzarat ha-shats anyway, at least

Yosef Gilboa

From: Joel Rich <Joelirich@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:47:17 EST
Subject: Re: Entire Modim aloud

Rav Soloveitchik was adamant that the congregation needed to here the
entire repetition in order to complete tfilat hatzibur (the prayer of
the congregation). Thus the prayer leader says modim anachnu lach aloud
(so all can be modim to Hashem) then waits until the congregation says
modim drabanan in an undertone, and then he finishes the rest of modim

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:08:03 +0200
Subject: Kah Kaili

Another nusach query:
the piyut just before Ashrei at Musaf on Chag, Kah Kaili,
is it said in Ashkenazi minyanim on Shabbat or not or what?
Yisrael Medad

[I suspect the "or what?" is likely the answer. I think there are
various minhagim for this one. Mod.]


From: David I. Cohen <BDCOHEN613@...>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:04:46 EST
Subject: Mi Sheberach

I have seen a solution to the "circus" atmosphere in shul where there is
a long line for the recitation of individual "Mi Sheberach" while the
rest of the congregation takes the opportunity for a 5 minute lashon
hara break. Our minyan (I have also seen this at the YI of West
Hartford, CT) has everyone say the Mi Sheberach together, pausing for
each indivudual to insert the names of their individual cholim. If
someone is lucky enough not to have anyone to say a Mi Sheberach for, we
announce the name of a member who is hospitalized to insert in the
proper place. Decorum is restored and we now have a more meaningful
prayer for those who are sick.

David I. Cohen


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:38:43 -0500
Subject: Origin of the Word "Pareve"

I originally wrote:

> There was a chamber in the Bais Hamikdash (Holy Temple) called the Bais
> HaPareve (the Pareve chamber). This chamber was half in the Ezras
> Kohanim and half in the Ezras Yisrael, 'neither here nor there' so to
> speak. Therefore, the term Pareve has come to mean neither meat nor
> dairy.

Yisrael Medad responded:

> it was the Beit Hamoked that was open both to the inner
> courtyard and the outer courtyard, to allow an exit for a
> Kohen who had become impure.
> As for the Office of Parveh, see Rambam, Avodah, Hilchot Beit Habechirah,
> Chapt. V, Para. 17 - that the Office was where they treated the skins of
> the sacrificed animals (which would make it a "meaty" place).

Did I say two openings? I didn't say two openings. I said the Bais
HaPareve straddled the border between the Ezras Kohanim and the Ezras
Yisrael. The chamber's usage was not relevant to my
speculation. However, your assertion that treated skins would be
Fleishig (meaty) needs investigation. My understanding is that a treated
skin (e.g. a water or wine flask) would be Pareve. Thus, it's usage as a
skin processing plant would even bolster my explanation!

Kol Tuv,
Joseph Geretz
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:36:59 +0200
Subject: Re: PARDES

>Does anyone have any sources for PARDES as the elements of Torah
>interpretation?  I.E. what is "pshat" "drosh" "remez" "sod"?

If my recollection serves me, the earliest use of this term is found in
the (hebrew) writings of Rav Moshe DeLeon. If anyone can find a source
which uses this definition earlier than the 13th century I would be most
interested. The term used in the Talmud is related to paradise, the term
refers most likely to Gan Eden. See Rabenu Chananel and the Otzar
Hagaonim to Chagiga 14b.

Ari Kahn


From: Michael Berkovits <michaelberkovits@...>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:35:05 EST
Subject: Parshas Haazinu as Segulah

i am looking for the source of, or any info about, the topic of saying or 
learning parshas haazinu either from the chumash or off by heart, is a 
segulah for "all good things" especially parnoso (livelyhood). If nay one 
can help me with this please reply. thanks



From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:29:50 +0200
Subject: Question about Machzor Yerushalayim

They come in S'fard, Ashkenaz and Edot HaMizrach.
You can buy either all three, the two Yamin Noraim or the R'galim.


From: Percy Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:00:19 +0000
Subject: Women and kitl

Russel Hendel wrote:
>--We wear kittles in order to a) remind ourselves of goals of spiritual
>purity b) remind ourselves of the day of death (and induce a sense of
>humility) Since women need these reminders also they should wear

This requires some clarification. On eof the reasons given for a man
wearing a kitl is that the kitl is one of the takhrikhin (burial
shrouds) in which a man is dressed for burial. Thus wearing a kitl
during one's lifetime serves as a reminder that man is mortal, which
should lead to thoughts of teshuvo.

I don't think that the takhrikhin of women include a kitl, so there is
no point in a woman wearing a kitl during her lifetime either.



End of Volume 30 Issue 1