Volume 30 Number 17
                 Produced: Wed Nov 24 21:55:03 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Are modesty laws dependent on Societal vs Individual Norms
         [Russell Hendel]
Entire Modim Aloud
         [Michael Poppers]
Kissing Tzitzis (3)
         [Michael Poppers, David Ziants, Reuven]
Negiah (2)
         [Shlomo Pick, Gitelle Rapoport]
Sheimot written in Newspapers (2)
         [David Charlap, Perry and Esther Zamek]
shena b'shabbat taanug
         [Yisrael Medad]
Standing during Modim
         [Susan Shapiro]
Yom Tov Sheni for Israelis in Huts la-Arets (2)
         [Zev Sero, Shelli and Dov Frimer]
Zedukah Telephone Calls
         [Carl Singer]


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:47:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Are modesty laws dependent on Societal vs Individual Norms

Avi Feldblum in V30n13  writes
On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Russell Hendel wrote:
> The suggestion that eg saying HELLO to a married woman (when you
> don't ordinarily say HELLO) creates "sexual urges" seems a little
> bit of an exaggeration.
The use of the term "you" above I think somewhat confuses the issue. I
think the question is what is considered "ordinary" behavior. If you are
living in a society where a man does not speak publicly to a married
woman who is not his spouse, then to go and do that is a violation of
"borders" or we may be concerned that it could lead to issues of arousal.

In other words Avi thinks the probibition (of Saying Hello to a married
women) is dependent upon the "ordinary behavior of SOCIETY" while I
think it depends upon the "ordinary behavior of that INDIVIDUAL". It
is for that reason that I used the term "you". I would be curious
for halachic sources. I based myself on an ANALOGOUS prohibition of
saying HELLO to someone who loaned you money--this is based on patterns
of the INDIVIDUAL not SOCIETY (cf Rambam, Loans, 5:12).

Avi further writes >>>>>>>>
(Bringing in Moshe and Sarah is again somewhat of a red herring here,
halacha in general does not deal with singular individuals,>>>>>

This is a question on Rabbi Freedman, not on me. I think Rabbi Freedmans
intention is that even privacy between a say a teenage girl and boy is
not prohibited because we worry that they may have sex but rather is
prohibited because it violates their borders of modesty (or another way
of saying it, it creates poor atmosphere). Moshe and Sarah were only
chosen as a GOOD example.

Russell Hendel; Phd ASA; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/


From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:17:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Entire Modim Aloud

In M-J 30#15, CSherer posted:
> Regarding saying the entire Modim aloud, see the Mishna Brura (150?)
where he says that the Shaliach Tzibur should say the words "modim
anachnu lach" with the Tzibur and then wait for them to finish before
continuing so that the Tzibur hears the entire Modim. <

I don't have that section of Orach Chayim in the office, but I can quote
the following from MB 127:3, which he quotes in the name of Elya Rabba
and Mogain Giborim: "[While the congregation are saying 'modim...boruch
ail haho'da'os,'] the shaliach tzibbur doesn't have to wait until
they've finished...but can continue in his present mode."  I read the MB
as saying that the shaliach tzibbur need *not* wait for the tzibbur to
finish their "modim" prayer.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ


From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:57:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Kissing Tzitzis

In M-J 30#16, JHoexter wrote:
> Regarding holding the front 2 tzitzis for baruch she'amar and kissing
them afterwards, who has this custom? I know Chabad does it but I don't
remember ever seeing it anywhere else. Is it sephardim and chassidim?
Anyone else? <

See MB 51:1; also see various siddurim (e.g. you'll find the
recommendation listed in Siddur Avodas Yisroel as well as in the
Roedelheim Siddur S'fas Emes -- as a certified Yekke, I'm familiar with
both :-).  Not surprisingly, this custom is quite widespread.  I recall
once hearing that it had a basis in kabbalah -- perhaps someone can
quote a source from that area of m'sorah.

A tangential point: in "Breuer's" (which, for all who don't know,
follows the custom of Frankfurt am Main), the shaliach tzibbur/chazzan
announces "sh'tikah yafah b'sha'as ha't'fillah" (i.e. "During the time
for prayers, Silence is Golden!") before starting to say "Baruch
She'omar," and he says the entire "Baruch She'omar" paragraph aloud --
I've heard neither custom practiced in shuls which don't follow minhag

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

From: David Ziants <davidz@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:12:39 +0200
Subject: Re: Kissing Tzitzis

I have always done this and assumed everyone did.

Have just looked it up in Avaraham Yishaia Papauper's "Ishei Yisrael"
(16:14 / p149). The footnote refers to the Mishneh Berura 51:1 
as well as other sources.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

From: Reuven <millerr@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:15:59 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Re: Kissing Tzitzis

See Mishneh Brurah siman katan aleph in 51:1 who brings this custom. The
Beer Hataiv brings it in the name of Sefer Hakavanot

I think that everyone does it but I'm  not sure.



From: Shlomo Pick <picksh@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:01:14 +0200
Subject: Negiah

in vol. 29, no 97, D Katsman wrote:
>"A note on terminology:

>When I was a YU freshman twenty-odd years ago, someone in the shiur
>asked Rabbi J. David Bleich a question about "negi'a".  "Talk like a
>lamdan!" came the reply.  "The term is hibbuk ve-nishuk [hugging and
>kissing]!"  In fact, the classic halakhic meaning of the term "negi'a"
>has to do with an interested party to a dispute, such as a witness who
>is "noge'a ba-davar", and nothing to do with physical contact between
>the sexes."

In spite of the above, the following have used the term "negi'a".  The
earliest that I found is in Terumot haDeshen, I, no.252 and from there
to Beit Yosef, Y.D. 195 (15-16) s.v. katav adoni.  It's then found in
Shach, ibid, no. 20 and pitchei teshuva no. 2.  In kizur shulchan
aruch,153, se'if 14 down to igrot moshe, y.d. II, no. 83.  courtesy of
bar-ilan responsa cd (and only because i have seen the term used by


From: Gitelle Rapoport <giteller@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:54:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Negiah

Thanks to Chana Luntz for reminding us (in Vol. 30, No. 16) of R. Yehuda
Henkin's teshuvah on negiah and related matters. Just goes to show that
statements about the halacha on a particular topic, however well
documented, are often incomplete until one reads contemporary teshuvot
and in some cases, knows the oral p'sak of respected authorities who
have not (yet?) committed their rulings to writing. It's a big sea out

For all those on the list who celebrate or acknowledge the value of
Thanksgiving -- and to the rest of you too -- have a happy one.

Gitelle Rapoport 


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:04:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Sheimot written in Newspapers

Joshua Hosseinof wrote:
> Since I haven't seen the picture from the Times book review (I
> already threw mine out), it's possible that someone can make the case
> that the newspaper printing of that picture is not real text, but
> merely dots very close together that resembles the text to our eyes.

This might be applicable only if the image was half-toned.  If the Name
was written with a solid primary color (cyan, yellow, magenta, black, or
non-halftoned combinations thereof), that argument wouldn't apply.

> That was one of the answers I've heard in regards to having the name
> of Hashem on a computer screen.

It's not quite the same thing.  On a computer screen, the dots do not
run together.  If you take out a magnifying glass, you can always see
clear gaps between the dots.  When solids are printed, there is no such

Furthermore, text on a computer screen is temporary by nature - it must
be refreshed many times per second (typically 60, 72 or 75 times) to
avoid fading away.  One can argue that preventing a redrawing is not the
same as erasing.

But this is drifting off-topic onto one that's been discussed quite a
bit in the past.

-- David

From: Perry and Esther Zamek <jerusalem@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:33:47 +0200
Subject: Sheimot written in Newspapers

This discussion brings to mind the case where the Post Office in Israel
issued a stamp with the Shem HaMeforash in the design (a picture of the
Great Synagogue in Tunis, if my memory serves me correctly). After the
matter was noticed, the stamps were withdrawn. The concern, at the time, if
I recall correctly, was more that the postmark would obliterate the Shem, as
well as issues of throwing envelopes with the stamp into the garbage. 

Which of these two concerns is the more serious?

Perry Zamek   | A Jew should hold his head high. 
Peretz ben    | "Even in poverty a Hebrew is a prince... 
Avraham       |       Crowned with David's Crown" -- Jabotinsky


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:12:40 +0200
Subject: Re: shena b'shabbat taanug

David Curwin asks in Volume 30 Number 11:
>Does anyone know the origin of the phrase 
>"shena b'shabbat taanug" (sleep on shabbat is a pleasure)?

besides in the piyut Ma Yedidut?


From: Susan Shapiro <SShap23859@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:00:29 EST
Subject: Standing during Modim 

I have seen people stand for the Modim for the repetiation of the
Shemoneh Esrai and not stand. What is the correct way, and according to
what opinions?

Susan Shapiro, S. Diego, CA


From: Zev Sero <Zev@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:04:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Yom Tov Sheni for Israelis in Huts la-Arets

Daniel Katsman <hannah@...> wrote:

>If we have been instructed to maintain this practice even though the
>calendar has been fixed and eveyone knows the correct date, we should
>observe it in its original form.  Israelis abroad should keep two days
>min ha-din (no melakha, Yom Tov davening, kiddush, no tefillin on the
>last day), and hutsnikim in EY should keep only one day.
>About 15 years ago I was told that this was the opinion of R. Hayyim of
>Brisk, but I have never seen it inside.  Does anyone know a source?

I don't know about R Chayim, but this is definitely the ruling of The
Rav's Shulchan Aruch (2nd Edition, Chapter 1), though he doesn't give
the reason that you suggest.  He says that on the second day the
holiness of Yomtov exists in chutz laaretz but not in Israel, in exactly
the same way that the holiness of Shabbat and Yomtov exists in one time
zone and not in another.

Zev Sero                Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day;
<zsero@...>       set him on fire and he'll be warm for the
                        rest of his life.   - Ankh-Morpork proverb

From: Shelli and Dov Frimer <greenj94@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:49:20 +0200
Subject: Yom Tov Sheni for Israelis in Huts la-Arets

I do not know if this was the opinion of R. Hayyim Soloveitchick.
However, in Tishrei 5734 (1973), I was returning to the US from Israel
for a wedding and would be in America for Sukkot. I asked R. Aharon
Lichtenstein regarding the appropriate observance on Yom Tov Sheni. R.
Lichtenstein told me that Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik requires an Israeli
in Huts-la-Arets to observe two full days - issurei melachah, tefillot
and all - just as if he were a local Huts-la-Arets resident.When I got
to the States, The Rav personally confirmed this to be his opinion.

Dov I. Frimer
Ma'aleh Adumim


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:25:42 EST
Subject: Re: Zedukah Telephone Calls

The following is practical advice, not a p'sak of any kind -- especially
concerning one's obligations to charity and the various priorities
(community, mikeh, school, etc.)

For telephone solicitors who I DO NOT know, I tell them, in truth, that
I do not do something as important as tzedukah over the telephone, and
ask them to send me literature.  I refuse to pledge an amount over the
telephone in such cases.  One of several things usually happens: (a)
they send me the literature and I evaluate it at my own time and place
(b) they insist on my stating an amount before they will send me
literature -- in which case I reiterate that I don't do these things
over the telephone or (c) they send me a pledge card with some amount
filled in - in which case I discard the entire packet.

For solicitors from organizations that I DO know, I and ask them when
and how much I gave last time (I have found recently that several
organizations solicit multiple times per year -- and I don't always have
my computer / check register in front of me when the phone rings.)  I
state an amount, but tell them it is contingent on my reviewing my

Now the mails:

I've recently been baraged with several very "slick" mailing (4 color
offset, personalized letters, etc.)  from organizations that I've never
heard of -- I'm very wary towards these.  I'm always concerned that the
printer and the bulk mailer are making a parnuseh (livelihood) and the
tzedukah is getting only a small fraction.

BTW -- if you work for a major company you may wish to see if they will
match your donations, also check and see if you can put "Jewish"
charities onto the approved annual United Way (etc.) donor list.
There's a lot of paperwork involved, but this way you (and co-workers)
can designate organizations such as Ohel, Agudah, etc., to receive via
payroll deduction.

Carl Singer


End of Volume 30 Issue 17