Volume 30 Number 37
                 Produced: Fri Dec 17  7:01:32 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

"L'Dovid Hashem Ori" and Aliyos
         [Samson Bechhofer]
(Rav) Eliezer or Elazar
         [Yosef Gilboa]
Accessing Computers located where it is still Shabbos
         [Scott Seltzer]
         [Eli Lansey]
Havdallah wine and women
Last Names
         [Eli Turkel]
Maoz Tzur (4)
         [Alan Rubin, Matthew Pearlman, Yisrael Medad, Saul Davis]
Megillat Antiochus
         [Sheri & Seth Kadish]
Policy on Attending Girl's Basketball Games
         [Joseph Geretz]
Yehudit (2)
         [Yeshaya Halevi, Yael Levine Katz]
Yehudit; Megillat Antiochus
         [Mike Gerver]


From: Samson Bechhofer <SBechhof@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:05:55 -0500
Subject: "L'Dovid Hashem Ori" and Aliyos

In a post (a few weeks back) from Nosson Tuttle, citing the practice in
Telz, Chicago, he inquired whether any other Shuls observe the practice
of not saying L'Dovid HaShem Ori during the month of Elul.  This is also
the practice in K'hal Adath Jeshurun ("Breuer's").

This is also to confirm Israel Rubin's noting that in Breuer's the
recipients of Aliyos receive silver plates engraved with the name of the
Aliyo (or Kibbud).  The Olim are still called up by name, except for the
recipient of Shevi'i, who is called up only by "Ya'amod Shevi'i".
Incidentally, the minhag in KAJ is not to announce the number of the
particular Aliyo after the name of the Oleh.

Samson R. Bechhofer


From: Yosef Gilboa <bfgilboa@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:15:27 -0800
Subject: Re: (Rav) Eliezer or Elazar

Yes, this is a very common confusion. I believe you will find many old
manuscript Haggadot that write - "amar Rabbi Eli`ezer ben `Azarya hare
ani k-ven shiv`im shana", instead of "El`azar ben `Azarya". In the
tanach, there are about an equal number of occurrences of "Yonatan" and
"Yhonatan", all referring to Jonathan, the son of Sha'ul. Many people
"correct" the spelling of the name of one of my sons from Yonatan, which
they perceive as some sort of careless mispronunciation, to Yhonatan.

Why? Go know!

Yosef (also appears as Yhosef) Gilboa


From: Scott Seltzer <juggler@...>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:44:06 -0500
Subject: Accessing Computers located where it is still Shabbos

I was with someone recently (here in Israel) on a motzei shabbos and he
didn't want to use the Internet because he didn't want to access
computers in America while it was still Shabbos there. What do you
people think of that?

Similarly, should someone in New York log on to a site in California
when it's still Shabbos there even though where he is it already ended?

Could anyone shed some light on this matter?




From: Eli Lansey <elansey@...>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:55:55 -0500
Subject: Aliyot

Israel Rubin wrote:
> More on this issue - I recall someone telling me that Sefardim don't
> actually call people up to the Torah in the manner of Ashkenazim, but
> simply approach the person and tell him that he is getting the current
> aliya.

One of my Rabeim is a Sefaradi and I asked him Israel's question. He
replied that the aliyot are given out beforehand and when they call the
oleh up they say, for example, "Vaya'amod Shilishi". Also, when they make
a misheberach after the aliyah they make it for the entire family and do
not mention any particular names. He told me that all of this is to avoid
the very problem that was brought up.


From: <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:59:16 EST
Subject: Havdallah wine and women

   While I do not believe the old wives tale, that a woman will\grow a beard 
if she drinks from the Havdalah wine,  is there a halachik source for women 
not drinking that wine?  If so what is the reasoning?


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:06:17 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Last Names

Does anyone have any idea when last names where introduced among the
Jews of Eastern Europe (Galicia, Russia and Austrio-Hungary).

Eli Turkel


From: Alan Rubin <arubin@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:04 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: Re: Maoz Tzur

>Interestingly, the only English translation that I have of the sidduris
>"The Authorised Daily Prayer Book, Revised Edition", by Rabbi Joseph H.
> Hertz, the Chief Rabbi of the British Empire.  By Authorised, I
> understand it to have been the siddur used in British shuls.  It
> replaces the words in question with "l'et tashbit matbeach, vtzar
> hamnabeach" - "when You will cause slaughter to cease, and the
> blaspheming enemy".  Was this modification used, and is it still in 
> use,  in British shuls?

The current Authorised Daily Prayer Book which was extensively revised 
in 1990 has  "l'et tachin matbeach mitzar hamnabeach" translated as 
"When you will have utterly silenced The loud-mothed foe"

I have a copy of the Herz revision 15th edition (1935) and this also has 
"l'et tachin matbeach mitzar hamnabeach" translated as "when thou shalt 
have utterly destroyed the blaspheming foe."

What edition has "l'et tashbit matbeach, vtzar  hamnabeach?"

Alan Rubin     <arubin@...>

From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:13:45 -0000
Subject: Maoz Tzur

Arguably, the main siddur used in British Shuls (and I believe the
Commonwealth), at least for those shuls that use siddurim with English
translation, is the Singer's Prayer Book.

The wording used there is "l'et tachin matbe'ach mitsar hamnabeach",
which is identical to that used by Artscroll.  Translations differ

Singer's 1962 ed: When thou shalt have utterly destroyed the blaspheming foe
Singer's 1990/1992 ed: When you will have utterly silenced the loud-mouthed
Artscroll: When you will have prepared the slaughter for the blaspheming foe

Matthew Pearlman

From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:54:20 +0200
Subject: Re: Maoz Tzur

Re: Warren Burstein <warren@...> writing:
>The first stanza includes the words "l'et tachin matbeach
>letzar hamnabeach".  

First of all, that should be "mitzar hamnabeach"

>That would make the line read "when You will slaughter the
>blaspheming enemy".

Not quite.  I would put it that the word "matbeach" refers to the altar
upon which sacrifices could again be made and we do this as opposed to
the "baying" of the enemy - nove'ach is the sound a dog makes.

From: Saul Davis <sdavis@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:20:13 +0200
Subject: Re: Maoz Tzur

Warren Burstein raised the issue of Maoz Tzur's first stanza "l'et
tachin matbeach letzar hamnabeach".  The current edition of the
"Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the British Commonwealth" is a new
translation (1990) by Rabbi Eli Cashdan zts"l. Rabbi Cashdan translated
that phrase as: "When you have utterly silenced the loud mouthed
foe". This is not a literal translation but is still very accurate ie
faithful to the original meaning.  I have an old Italian siddur which
does not have Maoz Tzur in it which I believe is unusual. Rabbi Shimshon
Raphael Hirsch zts"l translated the phrase as: "When You will prepare
judgement, deliverance from the raging foe". I cannot see a judgement
meaning in "matbeah". (Do not forget that the English Hirsch books are
translations of a translation (from the German)).

Saul Davis
Beer-Sheva, Israel


From: Sheri & Seth Kadish <skadish@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:04:11 +0200
Subject: Megillat Antiochus

Megillat Antiochus is the same as Megillat ha-Hashmonaim.  This short
book (about 70 verses) is one of the most fascinating "trivia" aspects
among the customs of Hanukka.  Gitelle Rapaport asked about it; since by
chance I recently prepared an informal shiur on it for Hanukka, I'll
just type up some of what I learned.

The 5th volume of Daniel Sperber's monumental "Minhagei Yisrael" is
devoted to the customs of Hanukka, and has authoritative essays on
Megillat Antiochus.  Here are some of the most pertinent facts:

The "megillah" was widely read in sephardic communities in earlier
times, and in some Yemenite communities (Baladi) to this day.  In Yemen
it was called "Megillat Antiochas" exclusively.  It never made it to
Ashkenazic lands.

The megillah is in Aramaic, later translated into more than one Hebrew

Linguistic analysis dates it to the century or so following the
destruction of Jerusalem.  According to the Sheiltot, it was written by
the elders of Bet Hillel and Beit Shammai (before the destruction).
According to Saadia Gaon, it was written by the five sons of Matityahu.
(This position is very difficult to maintain, since the megilla itself
records the deaths of Yehuda and Elazar.)

The megilla is included as an appendix in some medieval masoretic MSS of
the Bible.  Saadia translated the booklet into Arabic as he did for
Bible, plus he divided the original text into verses, adding vowels and
even te`amim(!).  When it was read in Yemen, each verse was read in
three languages, just like for readings from Torah and Navi: Hebrew,
Aramaic, and Saadya's Arabic.  It is written in this three-part format
in old Tajim, just like biblical verses.

As for the contents, they paint a simple but edifying picture of the
Hanukka story that is in line with the rabbinic view, especially by
including the miracle of the oil.  Its language mimics Megillat Esther
in some places.  It tells of a woman's martyrdom, but doesn't mention

The classic Birnbaum siddur has an attractive, punctuated Hebrew text of
the megillah with an English translation.

Basically, reading the megilla is another nice way to publicize the

Seth (Avi) Kadish


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:44:14 -0500
Subject: Policy on Attending Girl's Basketball Games

Etan Diamond asks:
> Does keeping the fathers and brothers away stigmatize the girls
> in some way, particularly if the prohibition does not extend to the
> other way (keeping mothers and sisters away from the boys' games)?

Why would it in any way sitgmatize? The operative word should be
*sensitize*, rather than stigmatize. The purpose of special laws of Tznius
for girls, are designed to sensitize and reinforce the special attidutes
that women should have in regards to modesty. While acceptble social norms
may be different today, (e.g. women do work outside the home) the
fundamental principle of Kol K'vuda Bas Melech Penima [The essence of a
princess' stature is inwardness (modesty)], is still as true today as it
ever has been. Restrictions preventing girls from being 'on display' so to
speak, whether for a basketball game or a graduation, protect the modesty of
these girls and keep the girls aware of the special degree of modesty which
befits a daughter of the King.

Kol Tuv,

Joseph Geretz
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.


From: Yeshaya Halevi <CHIHAL@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:28:29 EST
Subject: Re: Yehudit

You can read the Book of Judith in the Apocrypha.  The First and Second
Books of the Maccabees are also there.  Althought they failed to make
the "final cut" in the redaction of sacred Jewish writings, they are
interesting to read.
   Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>)

From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:25:17 +0200
Subject: Yehudit 

There exist different versions of "Ma'aseh Yehudit". A critical edition
of the Hebrew was published in 1957 by Yehoshua Grintz, entitled "Sefer
Yehudit", and is considered a standard work. There are also later
editions of "Ma'aseh Yehudit". The original is considered part of the
apocrypha, and there do exist English translations. See the entry
"Judith" in "The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion", and check
Rambi for articles.

Yael Levine Katz


From: Mike Gerver <MJGerver@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 00:57:46 EST
Subject: Yehudit; Megillat Antiochus

Gitelle Rapoport asks, in v30n33,
> Does anyone have details about the origin of the
>  "Megillah" and has anyone else seen the text, or the part about Yehudit,
>  in either Hebrew or English?

The Birnbaum siddur has the text of what it calls the "Megillat
Antiochus" in Hebrew and English. The footnotes say that Megillat
Chashmonaim is another name for the same text, that it was originally
written in Aramaic around the 7th century CE, and later translated into
Hebrew. During the middle ages in Italy it was read on Chanukah, like
Megillat Esther is read on Purim, and it is still read on Chanukah in
Yemenite communities. Saadya Gaon attributed it to the sons of

However, the text in Birnbaum does not include the story of Yehudit. The
source of that story, the Book of Judith, was originally written in
Hebrew, according to Cecil Roth's "History of the Jews," but the
original text is lost, and the earliest version we have is a Greek
translation, which is one of the books of the Apocrypha.  I don't know
where the "Ma'aseh Yehudit" comes from, in the booklet that Gitelle
received, but I imagine it is a later translation back into Hebrew of
the Greek book of Judith.  I also don't know why it was presented as
part of Megillat Antiochus; perhaps that term is sometimes used loosely
to include Ma'aseh Yehudit, or perhaps the editors of the booklet did
not make it clear where Megillat Antiochus ended and Ma'aseh Yehudit

Mike Gerver


End of Volume 30 Issue 37