Volume 30 Number 41
                 Produced: Wed Dec 22 13:10:21 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Anakim - Giants
         [Ron Hunter]
Cross Time Zone Melacha (3)
         [David Charlap, Eli Lansey, Carl Singer]
Eliezer or Elazar
         [Elazar M Teitz]
Havdallah wine and women
         [Ari Kahn]
Jewish Music
         [David Locke]
New Decrees
         [Darrell Sherman]
Policy on Attending Girl's Basketball Games (2)
         [Michael Lipkin, Yisrael Medad]
Shliach Mitzvah Money
         [Joseph Geretz]
Vayehi erev
         [Gershon Dubin]
Yonatan vs. Yhonatan (was Eliezer or Elazar)
         [Louise Miller]


From: Ron Hunter <rphunter@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:25:27 -0500
Subject: Anakim - Giants

I came across this reference to 'Anakim' in some reading can anyone
explain thier fate?

"Ancient Hebrew history speaks of a race of human beings known as the
'Anakim' in whose sight the ancient Israelites saw themselves as
'grasshoppers'. These giants were apparently very human yet of enormous
 According to some accounts they were anywhere from 9 to 12 feet tall,
and remained until the Israelites eventually drove them out of
Palestine. As to their final destination or what became of them, the
Hebrew records are strangely silent."


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:23:55 -0500
Subject: Cross Time Zone Melacha

Scott Seltzer wrote:

> I was with someone recently (here in Israel) on a motzei shabbos and
> he didn't want to use the Internet because he didn't want to access
> computers in America while it was still Shabbos there. What do you
> people think of that?
> Similarly, should someone in New York log on to a site in California
> when it's still Shabbos there even though where he is it already
> ended?

IMO, this is being stricter than necessary.

I understand why some people won't place phone calls or send faxes to
places where it is still Shabbat - you don't want a Jew on the other end
of the line to use the phone or read the fax.  But accessing a computer
on the internet is something else altogether - no human beings are
involved.  Internet communication is machine to machine.  People don't
get involved in the minute-to-minute operation unless something breaks.

In other words, using the internet when it is Shabbat at the location of
the remote server is not causing a Jew to do work on Shabbat.

The issue here is what the nature of Shabbat actually is.  Is it merely
a prohibition on you doing work, or is it a prohibition on you causing
work to be done in a location where it is Shabbat.

I would be surprised if the latter is the case.  Think about it this
way.  If you have to always be concerned about it being Shabbat
elsewhere in the world, you will effectively have to start observing a
48-hour Shabbat.  From the time it begins on one side of the
international date line, until it ends on the other side (48 hours
later), it is Shabbat somewhere on Earth.

Does anybody prohibit you from using your phone during these 48 hours?
Your call (especially an international call) might be routed through a
satelite or a cable that is in a region where it is Shabbat.  You're not
causing any person to do any work, because the system is fully
automated, but work is being done in a place where it is Shabbat.

Do you watch television during those 48 hours?  After all, much
programming is broadcast via satelite from the US to Israel and Europe.
And vice versa.  I realize that turning on a television doesn't cause
work to be done, but people watching a program does affect a program's
ratings, which will affect how the network arranges their schedules.

As the world gets more connected, via networks of various kinds, this
sort of issue will extend further into everyday life.  Does anybody
think we should switch to a Shabbat that is 48-hours long and
synchronized world-wide?  Personally, I think the idea sounds silly, but
if you prohibit actions that cause automated work in a place where it is
Shabbat, then this is a logical consequence of that prohibition.

-- David

From: Eli Lansey <elansey@...>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:59:01 -0500
Subject: Cross Time Zone Melacha

I asked a similar question to one of my Rabeim. He told me that a Jew
can not request from a non-Jew in a different time zone (before Shabbat
in both places) to do something for him when it is Shabbat in Jew's time
zone and not Shabbat in the goy's time zone. The reason is that the Goy
does not have Shabbat and his prohibition of doing work is linked to the
Jew's. On the other hand, if it is no longer Shabbat by the Jew, he can
request from a goy in a different time zone, where it is still Shabbat,
to do work for him because it is no longer Shabbat by the Jew and the
goy's prohibition is linked to the Jew's. But he did say that you can
access a machine (i.e. An aswering machine) in a different time zone
where it is Shabbat. Just as a side note, my rebbi also said that a Jew
*CAN* request from another Jew in a different time zone (before Shabbat
in both places) to do something for him when it is Shabbat in requesting
Jew's time zone and not Shabbat in the other Jew's time zone because
each Jew's prohibition of work not reliant on any other Jew's

From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:51:46 EST
Subject: Re: Cross Time Zone Melacha

The issue of sending email (or fax) to a place where it is still (or
already) Shabbos was discussed previously.  I believe there is an issue
of the metiziah (what is the actual technical finding / circumstance)
that seems to cloud or precede any halachik issues.  For example, is the
email completely unattended at the receiving (Shabbos) end?  And if it
is attended is it by someone who is likely a Jew.  By attendent, this
could be something as gross as someone who tears off the fax (before
plain paper.) or subtle as someone who is on call (with a pager?) as a
network administrator.

The strongest concern remains sending email to Israel when it's Shabbos
there (but clearly not at the sending location.)  where the likelihood
is that the "attendent" is Jewish.

Carl Singer


From: Elazar M Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:27:30 +0000
Subject: Re: Eliezer or Elazar

Take it from one who knows from personal experience: calling Elazar
"Eliezer" is so prevalent that the incorrect name is likely to be used
more often than the correct one by one's casual acquaintances. I presume
the reason is the rarity of the name Elazar in comparison to Eliezer.
(I know many Eliezers, but few Elazars other than relatives named for
the same ancestor as I am.)

(Incidentally, the comparison to Yonasan and Y'honoson is not valid.
Those are two forms of the same name, with the former apparently a
contraction of the latter; Elazar and Eliezer are distinct names.)

Elazar (not Eliezer) M. Teitz


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:07:28 +0200
Subject: Havdallah wine and women

"Is there a halachik source for women not drinking [Havdalah] wine?  If
so what is the reasoning?"

The Shl"a Hakadosh writes that since Eve sinned with the Tree of
Knowledge which was according to the Zohar grapes - she showed that she
could not differentiate between which fruits can be used and which could
not, subsequently it is inappropriate for a woman to make Havdala or
drink from the wine, being that Havdala is a ritual of "distinctions"


From: David Locke <BarqueCt@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:24:59 EST
Subject: Re: Jewish Music

I love the definition of Jewish Music supplied by Rabbi Geoffrey Shisler
Bournemouth (Orthodox) Hebrew Congregation UK But I have to relate a
very unnerving experience listening to Adon Olam sung to the tune of
"Amazing Grace."  Basically, the congregation fell out laughing.

David Locke (<barquect@...>)
Boca Raton, FL 


From: Darrell Sherman <shermand@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 05:50:32 -0500
Subject: New Decrees

In Rabbi Dweck's posting in vol.30 #31 regarding bicycles on Shabbat he
mentions the principle of "ein gozrim gezerot hadashot".  Given this
principle how was Rabbenu Gershom able to made gezerot including the
prohibition of a man having more than one wife and the other gezerot he
established and which were observed?

[I hope someone more familiar with the topic has more exact information,
but my understaning is this is why the set of "gezarot" that are
associated with Rabbenu Gershom are called the Cheram's of Rabbenu
Gershom, not his gezarot. He technically did not enact a new gezerah,
but rather put anyone who did any of the things he was trying to forbid
in cheram - excommunication. Mod.]


From: Michael Lipkin <msl@...>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:13:13 -0500
Subject: Policy on Attending Girl's Basketball Games

>From Etan Diamond MJ 30:34:
"One could argue that you are letting them play anyways,
why should you deprive the parents and siblings from seeing their
daughters and sisters compete?

Does keeping the fathers and brothers away stigmatize the girls
in some way, particularly if the prohibition does not extend to the
other way (keeping mothers and sisters away from the boys' games)?"

Setting the discussion of the halachos of tznius aside, accept as fact
that there are girls who, for religious reasons, will not wear pants,
shorts, or play basketball in skirts in front of men.  Thus, having
women's only attendance at these games is the most inclusive policy,
keeping in mind that the games are primarily for the girls and not the
spectators.  I don't think the converse is true with regard to boys, but
if it were then the same should apply.

Michael Lipkin

From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:19:40 +0200
Subject: Policy on Attending Girl's Basketball Games

 My own contribution from personal experience is that some 15 years ago,
when I had a daughter in the Bet El girls's school here in Binyamin, the
fathers were requested by the school administration advised by Rav
Shlomo Aviner not to come to a performance by the girls who were
finishing the 8th grade as the performance included singing (and perhaps
some movement, but I can't recall - and, of course, I didn't go even
though there was a suggestion by the male parents to protest such a
strict ruling).
 My wife, Batya, adds that basically since then no fathers are
present at school graduations out here.
 Needless to say, I don't think we have basketball teams but
kippot-crochetting teams may exist.
 Yisrael Medad


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:55:34 -0500
Subject: Shliach Mitzvah Money

Chaim Shapiro asked:

> #1 Does the giving of a
> dollar or two for tzeddakah make one a Shliach Mitzvah?  If someone
> gives me a Mitzvah to do, should I not do it right away?

Most people who give me Shaliach Mitzva money do so saying, "here give
this to a poor person in Israel", so until I arrive at my destination,
there is no consideration of delaying the Mitzvah. On the other hand,
once I arrive I do make an effort to distribute the money as soon as
possible so as not to delay in the performance of the Mitzvah.

> #2 Can a spouse make his or her partner a Shliach Mitzvah considering the
> money comes from the same source?

Sure. You can even make yourself a Shaliach Mitzvah by explicitly
setting aside some money to give to charity when you arrive at your
destination. It is the fact of your being on a mission of Mitzva which
affords an extra degree of protection, regardless of whether you are on
your own mission or for someone else. (Although, acting as an emissary
for someone else might even provide an additional extra degree of Shmira
(protection) due to the combined merits of your Mitzva together with the
other person's Mitzvah.)

Kol Tuv,

Joseph Geretz
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:49:06 -0500
Subject: Vayehi erev

> From: Elllen Krischer <krischer@...>
<< This doesn't mean that Rashbam started Shabbos on Saturday morning. 
It just means this is how he understood the phrases "yay'hi erev, vay'hi
boker" in the Torah.>>
> (See Moshe, I *was* listening in class!!!)>>

	Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky says in his sefer that before Matan Torah
the night did indeed follow the day.  He answers many problems with
this.  Who is Moshe, anyway?

[Moshe Bernstein, who teaches Tanach at YU and at Stern (I think). He is
also a list member and contributes here at times. Mod.]



From: Louise Miller <daniel@...>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:00:30 -0800
Subject: Yonatan vs. Yhonatan (was Eliezer or Elazar) 

I've always thought that Yonatan and Yehonatan (Yhonoson) were
different names.  Am I wrong?

Yonatan's Mommy
(Louise Miller)


End of Volume 30 Issue 41