Volume 30 Number 47
                 Produced: Sun Dec 26 19:34:56 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Accessing Computers located where it is still Shabbos (3)
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz, Dani Wassner, Kalman Neuman]
         [Dov Teichman]
Books for a Non-observant, but interested 12 year old.
         [Wendy Baker]
English books for non-observant, but interested 12 year old boy
         [Eliezer Finkelman]
Lighting Chanukah candles in glass boxes
         [Jacob Klerman]
Ma'oz Tzur (2)
         [Yisrael Medad, Sam Boosak]
         [Joshua Hoffman]
Subject: Ma'oz Tzur
         [Alan Rubin]
Washing Hands - Legend or Truth?
         [Yisrael Medad]
What Jews do on Christmas Eve (2)
         [Danny Schoemann, Jonathan Grodzinski ]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:15:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

It's now about a year since mail-jewish has come back to life, after a
hiatus (or at least reduced frequncy of mailings) of almost two
years. I'm very grateful to see those long-term members who have
returned as active contributors, as well as new people who are
joining. In the last few months, in particular, I've been seeing a
number of new subscribers joining the list.

You can expect to see a number of administrivia postings over the next
two weeks (until about Jan 5th) as I have some extended time off from
work. I expect there will be some rumination over the past. I missed the
"Bar Mitzvah" year of the list, which was started on March 5, 1986, but
the 13th anniversary of when I started as moderator will be coming up in
February of 2000. I will also be working to ensure that the introduction
posting is up to date, as well as improving and correcting our web
site. I would also like to ensure that I explain to everyone what I do
and how I operate as moderator/editor of the list, and what you can do
as contributors to help ensure the best treatment for your submissions.

OK, enough as an introduction, time to get a few issues out, and then
I'll continue my dialogue here.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:29:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Accessing Computers located where it is still Shabbos

> From: Scott Seltzer <juggler@...>
> I was with someone recently (here in Israel) on a motzei shabbos and he
> didn't want to use the Internet because he didn't want to access
> computers in America while it was still Shabbos there. What do you
> people think of that?
> Similarly, should someone in New York log on to a site in California
> when it's still Shabbos there even though where he is it already ended?

Rabbi Frand in Baltimore gave a shiur on this subject some years ago
dealing with fax machines and telephone answering machines.  The basic
conclusion was that it was permissable.  The basic idea is that you are
not violating shabbos.  However, one should be careful about maris ayin
or causing someone else to violate shabbos.

This next sentence is my own and not from the shiur.  For example, if
one sends an e-mail to someone who would read it on Shabbos, it would
probably be a good idea not to do so while it is shabbos at the
recipien's location, even though it is not a violation of shabbos.

Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore" | Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
 Jews are the fish, Torah is our water | Zovchai Adam, agalim yishakun

From: Dani Wassner <dani@...>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:35:17 +0200
Subject: RE: Accessing Computers located where it is still Shabbos

The halacha is that one cannot get any benefit from work that another
Jew has done on Shabbat until "miyad bemotzei Shabbat" (immediately when
Shabbat goes out). As a result, if you believe that there is Jew doing
melacha on Shabbat, you cannot get benefit out of it. This would include
writing online to a Jew where it is still Shabbat for them. General
Internet use would, I am sure, be fine.

I remember Rav Fink from Yeshivat Hamivtar in Efrat telling us that it
was assur (forbidden) to watch television on Motzaei Shabbat when they
were doing a live link with an Israeli reporter in Washington.

Dani Wassner, Jerusalem
Ph: 972-2-622-0556    Fax: 972-2-622-2412 
30 Agron St, Jerusalem 94190, ISRAEL 

From: Kalman Neuman <kneuman@...>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:38:56 +0200
Subject: Accessing Computers located where it is still Shabbos

There should be no problem accessing a computer located where it is
shabbat. The computer is not hayav b'mitzvot and shabat is basically a
hovat gavra (is dependent on the person, and therefore if the person is
not limited by the prohibitions of shabbat at that time, there is no

This reminded me of someone who told me that an American student in
Yeshivat Har Etzion had asked Rav Aharon Lichtenstein if he could ,
after havdala in the yeshiva, call his parents in the States. By letting
the phone ring a few times he would be wishing shabbat shalom to his
family.  If I remember correctly , Rav Aharon said that there was no
problem of hilul shabbat with this arrangement, however he had
reservations about the Hoshen mishpat aspect of this, i.e. if this was
not improper use of the telephone system!!!!


From: Dov Teichman <DTnLA@...>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:34:15 EST
Subject: Re: Anakim

Eli Lansey  writes:

<< The anakim basically died out along with all the other man-like homonids
 like the "Adnei Hasadeh" (possibly Neanderthals?) mentioned in mishnah
 Kilayim, perek 8, mishnah 5. For more information about the anakim look
 at the Malbim on Bereisheit, perek 6, pasuk 4. >>

How do you know that the "Adnei Hasadeh" died out? It seems from the
Tiferes Yisroel and the Yerushalmi that Adnei Hasadeh was more of a
Sasquatch/Big Foot type of creature. Tiferes Yisroel explains it as a
"Waldmensch" or "Forest-man."  Yerushalmi calls it a "Bar Nash DeTurah"
or "Mountain Man."  I believe the Gr"a also explains a posuk regarding
the plague of Arov-Wild Animals incorporating the Adnei Hasadeh.

Dov Teichman


From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:48:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Books for a Non-observant, but interested 12 year old.

I would recommend Joseph Telushkin's Jewish Literacy.  It is a large,
encyclopedic volume that covers an enormous number of topics briefly.  I
have used it as a Bar or Bat Mitzvah present for just this type of
child.  It also may well be used as reference by other members of the
family, which would be all to the good.

Wendy Baker


From: A.J.Gilboa <bfgilboa@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 11:33:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Christmas

I have noticed that American Jews, and not only Orthodox and other
shomre mitzvot Jews, are very sensitive to this issue and make a point
of avoiding participation in any of the Christmas festivities.

I, too, am curious to learn why there seems to be this difference in
attitude between American and British Jews.


From: Moish <moish@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 02:51:04 -0500
Subject: Eiruv-B.P.

I was recently in Boro Park, Brooklyn, and wherever I went I encountered
arguments about the Eiruv recently implemented. I also saw many signs
and leaflets thrown around the streets. Can anyone enlighten us EXACTLY
what are the two sides arguing about?


From: Eliezer Finkelman <Finkelmans@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 04:25:58 EST
Subject: English books for non-observant, but interested 12 year old boy

<<  Wouk, Herman, This is my god
    Standard and informative, but not life-changing.  Still, maybe

I have met more than a few people for whom this book has indeed proved 
Eliezer Finkelman


From: Jacob Klerman <klerman@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:44:55 -0800
Subject: Lighting Chanukah candles in glass boxes

Danny Schoemann asked about lighting and then placing candles
(presumably related to the gemorrah about hadlakah vs. hanacha --
lighting vs. placing).

This issue is discussed at length in the Pirchei Agudah's weekly parsha
sheet "Torah LaDaas" (which is often a fun read).  He seems to come out
that it is a good shailah, but mutar.

If someone wants a copy (and assuming that it is mutar to do so), I
would be happy to fax it (two pages I think).  Send me private e-mail.

Yaakov Klerman


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:33:50 +0200
Subject: Re: Ma'oz Tzur

Warren Burstein <warren@...> writes:

>Yisrael Medad would put it that the word "matbeach" refers to the altar
>Is this translation original with you?

And the answer is: yes.

And if you refer to Eliezer Diamond <eldiamond@...>,
although a bit roundabout, I think he basically confirms my version

From: Sam Boosak <srb@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 07:53:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Ma'oz Tzur

Regarding Maoz Tzur
Does anyone know who wrote the lyrics ???
Sam Boosak


From: Joshua Hoffman <JoshHoff@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:01:47 EST
Subject: Re: R.S.R.Horsch

<< I think Rav S.R.Hirsch was a full-time Rav even though he had an
advanced secular degree.  >>

 He did not have a university degree.


From: Alan Rubin <arubin@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:31 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: Subject: Ma'oz Tzur

Warren Burstein writes

> Alan Rubin brings a translation from The 1990 Authorised Daily Prayer
> Book that translates "tachin matbeach" as "utterly silenced".  Saul
> Davis brings the same siddur and adds that "This is not a literal
> translation but is still very accurate ie faithful to the original
> meaning".

> Matthew Pearlman finds the same translation in Singer's Prayer Book.

I think that there is some confusion here.  The Authorised Daily Prayer 
Book was originally published with a translation by the Rev S Singer.  
It was published under the authority of then Chief Rabbi Adler and later 
editions were revised by Chief Rabbi Hertz.  In the UK this prayer book 
has always been known as "Singer's" and people even refer to the latest 
edition with a new translation as "Singer's".  This is the same siddur 
as "The Authorized Daily Prayer Book With Commentary Introductions and 
Notes, by the Late Chief Rabbi Joseph H. Hertz".  If you look inside you 
should find that the translation was by the Rev Singer.

>Alan Rubin also asks
>> What edition has "l'et tashbit matbeach, vtzar hamnabeach?"

>The dust jacket says "The Authorized Daily Prayer Book With Commentary,
>Introductions and Notes, by the Late Chief Rabbi Joseph H. Hertz".  The
>cover page says "The Authorised Daily Prayer Book, Revised Edition,
>Hebrew Text, English Translation, With Commentary and Notes, by
>Dr. Joseph H.  Hertz, The Late Chief Rabbi of the British Empire".  It
>was published by Bloch Publishing Company, New York, the copyright date
>is 1948, I have the 14th printing, from 1971. Maoz Tzur is on page951.

The British publishers of the old edition were Eyre and Spottiswoode.  I 
wonder if this difference in Maoz Tzur is specific to editions published 
in the US.

Alan Rubin     <arubin@...>


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 00:29:41 +0200
Subject: Washing Hands - Legend or Truth?

Oren Popper write that:
"On a similar note, I have never seen women wash their fingertips with
Ma'yim Achronim. Does anyone know the reason for this?"

Whether you think this is an 'urban legend' or not (although I was
witness to a case at a NCSY gathering some 31 years ago), this reminded
me of the girl who, while standing on line to wash hands, asked a friend
for a ring.  When asked why, she indicated that almost every other girl
had a ring in her mouth while washing her hands and so she presumed she
needed one too.


From: Danny Schoemann <dannys@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 12:02:34 +0200
Subject: Re: What Jews do on Christmas Eve

In mail-jewish Vol. 30 #46 Joshua Plaut <rjplaut@...> asked about " What
Jews do on Xmas Eve"

Here in Jerusalem the answer seems to be "ignore it".

I was at a community sponsored Melave Malke last night (Dec 25) where the
head table boasted our leading Rabbonim: Litvish, Chasidish and Sefardi.

A total of 6 speeches and not one word about a date that has no meaning in

It wouldn't surprise me if nobody present was aware of the secular date.

Danny Schoemann

From: Jonathan Grodzinski  <JGrodz@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 01:26:59 EST
Subject: What Jews do on Christmas Eve

<<  The customs and prohibitions associated in law and minhag in terms of what
 Jews do on Christmas Eve and Day?  >>

I believe that in the Litvishe Yeshivos where learning on "Nittel nacht"
was not allowed, the boys busied themselves by tearing "Shabbos toilet
paper" for the rest of the year.

Jonathan Grodzinski 
London UK


End of Volume 30 Issue 47