Volume 30 Number 54
                 Produced: Wed Dec 29  8:44:28 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Meals
         [Harry Weiss]
         [Micha Berger]
Books for non-observant 12 year old (2)
         [Eli Pollock, Yitzchok Adlerstein]
Christian "copying"
         [Carl Singer]
Christmas (2)
         [Elanit Z. Rothschild, Yeshaya Halevi]
Christmas dinner
         [Carl Singer]
Oral vs Quiet Prayer
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
Rabbanim and Supervision
         [Oren Popper]
Singing imprecations
         [David Herskovic]
Teaching a Gentile Torah
         [Moti Silberstein]
What Jews do on Christmas Eve (2)
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz, Dovid & Rivka Stein]


From: Harry Weiss <harry.weiss@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 99 19:37:09 -0700
Subject: Airline Meals

In MJ  30/3 Oren Popper wrote:

"Furthermore, the note stated that the meat to be served would be
Had I not known better, I would assume that the meal accompanied by this
note could be eaten even by the biggest machmir. However, I was
surprised to find that non-cholov-yisroel was served with this meal.

[You've got me surprised now, even if the milk was cholov yisroel, I
would find it surprising with the glatt kosher meat. Mod]"

The Primary purveyor of Kosher Airline meals (Wilton) has the same note
in all meals.  All meals are marked as glatt even though they may be

Until recently everything was pareve or meat on airline meals (unless
one requested, in those airlines that allow a choice, vegetarian or
dairy.)  The one exception was a breakfast that I had occasionally that
consisted of bagel, cream cheese and lox.  The cream cheese was
separately packed and thus one could eat the meal without it.

When I traveled last week, I was served a Wilton cheese omelet for
breakfast.  I was not offered during the reservation process a choice in
type of kosher meal.  While, I was leaving from home in the morning and
rely of the heter for halav hacompanies, I was still disturbed by this.

Since most airlines do not give a choice in type of kosher meal, this
would create problems for those that are makpid on Chalav Yisroel.  In
addition this could create a problem for those with connecting flights
who may have been served a meat meal less than 6 hours earlier.

Obviously we cannot expect the airlines to understand our concerns.  The
OU however, should be familiar with how the airline meals are used and
who uses them and should put some additional requirements on these, just
like they stopped the mezonos role situation.



From: Micha Berger <micha@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 18:41:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Anakim

According to Webster's the word "urangutan" is from the Malay orang
(man) + hutan (forest). Sounds much like the expression adnei hasadeh
(men of the field). No?

Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 26-Dec-99: Cohen, Shemos
<micha@...>                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 89b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 10


From: Eli Pollock <elip@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 06:04:27 -0500
Subject: Books for non-observant 12 year old

I would recommend R' Berel Wein's history books . It comprises 3
volumes, lots of pictures etc.  I think a good historical perspective is
essential.  If he was a bit older I would say R' Aryeh Kaplan's works -
if you were god , handbook of jewish faith etc.  For a bright college
age student,"the juggler and the king" by R' Ahron Feldman, an
incredible work

Eli Pollock

From: Yitzchok Adlerstein <ravadlerstein@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:01:05 -0800
Subject: Books for non-observant 12 year old

IMHO, nothing beats Living Torah in America, by Rabbi Maurice Lamm.  It
is geared specifically to young people, and is witty, insightful, and
full of knowledge about what makes young people tick.

Yitzchok Adlerstein


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 07:53:46 EST
Subject: Re: Christian "copying"

Living in a pluralistic society with co-workers and neighbors who are
"devout" Catholics, I from time to time stumble across Christian (more
specifically Catholic) seemingly copying of Jewish prayer.  HaMavidil,
saying words that appear to be translations of Jewish prayer.  Kadosh,
(three times) with "Sanctom" (three times) and now I read in the local
paper about a door being opened on x-mas day with the words "open for me
the gates of justice" -- seemingly peetchu lee sharey tzedik.

This may be zman bittle Torah, but I was wondering to what extent other
religions have copied our prayers and our theology.  The Torah relevant
issue is a determination of whether a member of a specific religion is
considered an "avodah zorah" or believes in our G-d.  This distinction
governs interaction with him or her.

Carl Singer


From: Elanit Z. Rothschild <Ezr0th@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 21:53:29 EST
Subject: Re: Christmas

A.J.Gilboa wrote:

<< I have noticed that American Jews, and not only Orthodox and other
 shomre mitzvot Jews, are very sensitive to this issue and make a point
 of avoiding participation in any of the Christmas festivities.

 I, too, am curious to learn why there seems to be this difference in
 attitude between American and British Jews. >>

    It all depends on what type of festivities.  I know that many try to
stay away from the end-of-the-year office parties, but some have no
choice in the matter.  But then again (and I can only speak of the
experience here in the States), not much that is publicized has any
religious significance to it at all - the lighting of the tree in
Rockerfeller center, seeing Santa in the malls, even the holiday music.
On the contrary, it is very hard *not* to get all wrapped up in the
"holiday spirit," especially because we all go shopping for Chanukah
gifts in the same malls and stores that are decorated with the colorful
stuff and that are playing the same music.  As another poster pointed
out, in Israel, the atmosphere is probably very different.  One doesn't
realize the significance of the date, because there isn't much going on,
except in the designated "holy" areas.

    I would like to point out one good thing that we can all gain from
at this time of year.  The fact that the holidays bring out the best in
people is a very important thing.  Many see this time of year as a time
for giving and sharing, and needless to say, this is the time when many
charities get most of their donations.  Just being on the phone with
people at work is much more pleasant.

    All in all, Christmas has somewhat lost its religious value amongst
the craziness of the gift-buying, the sales and the atmosphere here in
the States, IMHO.  The most important part is that the children
understand the difference, and that just because the tree looks nice
with all the presents under it, it is not our holiday to celebrate (just
like they don't like Chanukah candles or play dreidel).

Elanit Z. Rothschild

From: Yeshaya Halevi <CHIHAL@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:14:37 EST
Subject: Christmas

Shalom, Khavareem
        It's not only Jews. My menchlcikeit Muslim neighbor, raised in
England, also misses Christmas, and goes the whole 8 yards.  I say 8
yards instead of 9 because I don't think they have a tree; but she sends
"Shlakh manot," and is careful to give kosher items to me.
      Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>)


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 07:45:50 EST
Subject: Re: Christmas dinner

Now a day late, but advice is free.

If you're uncomfortable don't go.  An be explicit, yet tactful in
explaining your decision.

If you feel your friend needs your support or a strong hand to tell her
that this is improper in your eyes, etc.  consider going -- possibly
with someone else who can help bolster and support your position.

And if she has mistletoe above the doorway -- run like hell :)

Carl Singer


From: Yeshaya Halevi <CHIHAL@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:46:26 EST
Subject: Oral vs Quiet Prayer

    Something just occurred to me, and I'm puzzled.  When we begin the 
Shmoneh Esray (18 Benedictions) we begin by saying, Hashem open my lips, 
and let my mouth tell your praises" -- but then we are **silent** for that 
whole prayer.
         Doesn't the language "Hashem open my lips, and let my mouth tell 
your praises"  automatically indicate oral prayer (i.e. spoken out loud?
    All answers will be appreciated.
  Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>)


From: Oren Popper <opopper@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 09:51:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Rabbanim and Supervision

> > [You've got me surprised now, even if the milk was cholov yisroel, I
> > would find it surprising with the glatt kosher meat. Mod]
[This reply just below, did not get published previously to the list,
 but as it speculated and asked for Oren's clarification, I thought
 Orens reply which quoted this would be fine. Mod]
> This sounds like a general note to be served with all meals under this
> hechsher (both dairy and meat).  That is with the meat meal, the
> statement about the meat would apply.  With the dairy meal, the
> statement about the milk would apply.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. This was a dairy meal, and the note was
indeed a general note. It did not have any mention of dairy kashrus
standards. I would only imagine that when someone claims to be
glatt-kosher (I think it even said chassidishe shechita - whatever that
means) and pas-yisroel, cholov yisroel would go without saying.

> Secondly, sometimes the airline in an attempt to "help out" will put a
> container of milk on the tray with the (seled) package of kosher food.

This was clearly not the case, I'm referring to items
which were sealed with the meal.


From: David Herskovic <david@...>
Subject: Singing imprecations

Warren Burstein wrote about the words in the first stanza of Mo'oyz Tzur
>> While this isn't the only prayer asking for retribution, I can't
>> think of any other that is sung so cheerfully.

I too have had similar problem with the (I think) Lubavitcher tune to
the words of 'ashrei sheyoykheyz...' 'A blessing on him who seizes your
babies and dashes them against the rocks' (JPS tranl. of Psalms 137:9)

While the words are from Tehilim and so whatever you make of them they
are still part of the sifrei kodesh, I don't think they are best suited
for a dance tune.

Dovid Herskovic


From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 07:56:21 EST
Subject: Tahara

 Any of you who are on a local chevra may come across this situation and
here's a "hint" that may be useful.  When the maise is wearing a ring,
it's preferable to remove it, frequently it is quite difficult to do due
to swelling, morbidity, etc.
 Never pull on it, it only exacerbates the situation.  Instead put a
little liquid soap on the finger and slowly, very slowly "screw" the
ring off.



From: Moti Silberstein <moti2@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:59:45 -0500
Subject: Teaching a Gentile Torah

May a person discus torah with a gentile?

[Having fixed the Fullindex file and web page, it's wonderful what you
can find. For discussion on this topic, please see V12N72,77,82. Main
references listed then are:

R. S. Borenstein, "Teaching Torah to Non-Jews." J. Halacha &
Contemporary Society 26, Fall 1993. pp 58-76.

The article in R. Bleich's third volume of _Contemporary Halakhic
Problems_ is a reprint of his 1980 _Tradition_ article, as Freda



From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 11:09:21 -0500
Subject: Re: What Jews do on Christmas Eve

> From: Joshua Plaut <rjplaut@...>
> The customs and prohibitions associated in law and minhag in terms of what
> Jews do on Christmas Eve and Day?

I remember seeing a reference to "nittl nacht" as a time not to learn
explained as follows.  The local goyim would have their midnight
"service".  In order to counteract the avodas zoro, people would make
sure to come to the bais medrash and learn or say tikkun chatzos at
midnight.  In order to make sure that they were rested and able to
learn, they would skip the normal night seder.  Apparently, people
remembered not learning during the regulr evening but forgot why.

Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore" | Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
 Jews are the fish, Torah is our water | Zovchai Adam, agalim yishakun

From: Dovid & Rivka Stein <rgoldfin@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:10:31 -0500
Subject: What Jews do on Christmas Eve

: Jonathan Grodzinski  <JGrodz@...> wrote the following
>I believe that in the Litvishe Yeshivos where learning on "Nittel nacht"
was not allowed, the boys busied themselves by tearing "Shabbos toilet
paper" for the rest of the year.

The custom in Litvishe yeshivos was to learn on "nittel nacht" The
custom of not learning on "nittel nacht" was observed only by
chassidim. And Jonothan is correct that they would make good use of
their time. The custom even today amongst chassidim is to take care of
other matters until chatzos. After chatzos, learning was back on
schedule. There are some mistaken individuals who believe that there is
a minhag to play cards on "nittel". However, bitul zman is much more
serious of an aveira than leartning on nittel. The biur halach and the
kedushas levi both are very emphatic about the prohibition of playing

    Kol tuv
        Dovid Stein <rydys@...>


End of Volume 30 Issue 54