Volume 30 Number 64
                 Produced: Mon Jan  3  8:41:58 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia - Yaakov Frimer Fund at Ezer miZion
         [Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer]
A New Reason For Minyan; Counting Non Frum Jews
         [Russell Hendel]
Christian "copying"
         [Shlomo Godick]
Hair Covering after Kiddushin/Yichud
         [Rachel Smith]
Kollel (3)
         [Tszvi Klugerman, Daniel Israel, Chaim Mateh]
Mayim Achronim
         [Joseph Geretz]


From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@...>
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:45:22 +0200
Subject: Administrivia - Yaakov Frimer Fund at Ezer miZion

[This is far from 'trivia', but adding the Administrivia helps bring
this to the beginning of the issue, which I feel this merits. Mod.]

Dear Friends,
	Many have informed us that they would like to give a donation in
Yaakov's memory, and wondered whether we had a preference. Upon
consultation with his wife Shira, we have set up a special fund in
Yaakov's memory at Ezer MiZion's Oranit Hostel.
	A few words about Ezer MiZion and Oranit. Those who have been
close to cancer know that it is a living nightmare of operations,
chemotherapy, fever and pain, infection, nausea and vomiting, crisis,
hopelessness and depression, questions and doubts, and above all that
constant fear.
	Several wonderful individuals and organizations came to Yaakov
and Shira's aid - but one stands out in particular: Ezer MiZion. They
were always there: supplying private ambulances for transportation to
and from the hospital, lodging at Ezer MiZion Hostel "Oranit" when
returning home was difficult or inconvenient, and above all friendship,
assistance and counselling when most needed. To help relieve the
depression and sad routine, Ezer MiZion arranges parties, concerts with
leading singers, trips and summer camps. These events help remove the
patient and his family from the constant preoccupation with the disease,
and allow the light of joy and normalcy to break through from time to
	I have mentioned the Ezer MiZion Hostel "Oranit" - its
importance to the cancer patient and his family cannot be
overemphasized. It serves as a refuge and safe haven in time of need. A
warm home away from home, one short block from Schneider Children's
Hospital, where Cancer patients can find temporary lodging and where
children with cancer find games, toys, computers, books, TV and
	Ezer MiZion and it's staff were always there for Yaakov and
Shira and their Twins Matan and Ariel when the need arose. Ezer MiZion
deserves our support and encouragement. Please consider becoming a
partner in their worthy and much valued endeavors.

	For those interested, kindly make your donations out to "Ezer
MiZion", and Mark the check (or add a note) to the effect that the funds
should be earmarked for the "Yaakov Frimer Fund at Oranit" (in Hebrew:
"Keren Yaakov Frimer be-Oranit"). Send you checks:

In Israel:
Ezer MiZion-Oranit
40 Rehov Kaplan 
Petach Tikva
(Mark the check: "Keren Yaakov Frimer be-Oranit")

In the USA:
Ezer MiZion
2772 Nostrand Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210
(Mark the check: "Yaakov Frimer Fund at Oranit")

	Much Thanks in advance ve-Tizku le-Mitsvot.
		The Frimers (Cleveland and Rehovot)


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:22:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: A New Reason For Minyan; Counting Non Frum Jews

Yoel Finkelman In Volume 30 Number 60 brings up the issue of not
counting non frum jews for a minyan. I would like to give two arguments
in support [of counting them - Mod.](one halachic and one midrashic).
Before doing so I state that I am aware that there are sources that seem
to support this practice sometimes [not counting them? Mod.] and I hope
they are cited and refuted by other posters.

An entire issue of times magazine a few years ago on prayer reported
that 25% of aetheists pray. Personally I (and am sure others ) have seen
non believers go to Minyan to say kadish.  Therefore EVEN if we
shouldn't count them in a minyan, we have a right to perceive them as
'mometarily doing teshuva'---by particpating in the minyan.  Even if say
they are mechallel shabbos, we presume that they have taken upon
themselves the yoke of heaven (after all if they really didn't believe
in God why would they pray).

On a philosophical level note that the REASON we require a minyan of 10
people is because 'all matters of sanctity' require 10. This is learned
from the word link in the two verses (lev 19:1) 'tell the CONGREGATION
to be HOLY' and Num 14:27 '..this evil CONGREGATION' The logic goes that
since the CONGREGATION in Num refers to the 10 spies therefore the
CONGREGATION in Lev also refers to 10 people.

But such derivations by word links are only valid on Biblical laws for
which we have a mosaic tradition dating back to Sinai. Minyan is
rabbinic (the same way Kedushah and Brchu is rabbinic). So what is the
real reason we daven with 10. I would suggest that we daven with 10 to
REMIND ourselves that the slander of only 10 spies caused the downfall
of the Jewish people in the wilderness. In other words every time 10
people get together to pray--they form a minyan--and chazal wanted them
to remember how evil slander is.

 From this point of view, it would be important to accept all people who
wish to pray at every minyan

Russell Hendel; Phd ASA; <RHendel@...>
Moderator Rashi Is Simple; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/


From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:35:17 +0200
Subject: Re: Christian "copying"


Your examples are not particularly good ones since they are psukim.
"Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh" appears in Yeshayahu perek 6.  "Pitchu li
shaarei tzedek" is in tehillim.  As you know, the Christian world highly
regards the Hebrew Bible (the "OT" in their lingo) and appropriates many
of the psukim and tehillim for liturgical use.  On the other hand, I
think you would be hard pressed to find an example of a non-scriptural
portion of the Jewish siddur that has been appropriated by the Christian

Kol tuv,
Shlomo GOdick   


From: Rachel Smith <rachelms@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:58:29 -0800
Subject: Hair Covering after Kiddushin/Yichud

	Following up on my own post...
	First the Mishna (Kesubos 2:1) that Eliezer Finkelman mentioned
regarding the arusa going to the chuppah with a "hynuma".  Apparently
the Mishna Brura disagrees with Rashi's pshat of "hynuma" meaning hair
flowing over her shoulders, because the MB says explicitly in 75:2(11)
"uvsulos arusos asuros leileich b'gilui harosh" ("virgin arusos are
prohibited from walking with uncovered head" which in context (Hilchos
K'rias Sh'ma) probably means hair).
	Perhaps the lenient custom of starting to cover the hair the day
after the wedding is more common only in Litvish circles, perhaps since
covering hair in Litvish circles itself wasn't always followed.  By some
inquiries since my post I've found that the Sefardic custom is to have
the yichud after the wedding meal.  Since they hold like the Rambam that
n'suin is achieved by yichud, the kallah isn't a full n'suah until after
the yichud, by which time all the wedding photos/video are completed and
no one (except the caterer cleanup crew) is around to notice that the
kallah is putting on a tichel.  This custom also agrees with Rashi's
pshat in the Mishna, since the kallah goes to the chuppah with her hair
	The German custom is to cover the hair (nowadays with a sheitel)
before going to the chuppah, i.e. during the interlude after badeken
when everyone is wandering around and slowly moving into the chuppah
room.  A friend of mine (non-Yekke) did the same thing at her wedding.
	(Parenthetically, it's also interesting to note that the German
custom to cover the chassan and kallah with a tallis after the giving of
the ring and reading of the k'subah, while the sheva brachos are said,
also avoids an oddity in the sequence in the typical wedding - i.e. that
the kallah goes to the chuppah, which accomplishes one form of n'suin,
and THEN gets the ring for kiddushin.  The Yekkes hold the covering with
the tallis is the ikkar chuppah (the velvet canopy being only to
accommodate today's social pressures), so the order goes kiddushin
(ring) and then n'suin (chuppah = tallis over heads).)


From: Tszvi Klugerman <Klugerman@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:25:02 EST
Subject: Kollel

 Regarding the Kollel issue I believe that the earliest patronage system
, as the Kollel system is today, dates back to the turn of the first
millenia under the system instituted by Shmuel Hanagid in Spain and
followed by a number of wealthy Jews who undertook the support of
certain gifted Scholar artists, such as Solomon Ibn Gabirol and Moshe
Ibn Ezra. It should be noted that this patronage system was established
to ensure that a gifted scholar or artisan would be able to pursue their
talent and benefit others.

 It could also be argued that Maimonides benefitted from the patronage
of his brother, pusuing knowledge until the support ended with his
brothers disappearance and Miaimonides had to go to work and support his
and his brothe'rs families.

It appears that in those days people did not have difficulty determinig
who was "gifted enough" to merit support. Others had to work.


From: Daniel Israel <daniel@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:56:21 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Kollel

 In vol 30#49, Normy Gold <NaftaliG@...> wrote:
 << I recently had an enlightening conversation with a friend's daughter,
 who was dating a seventh-year Yeshiva boy in Yerushalayim. ... But what
 else is he doing for Klal Yisrael...>>

 I presume you mean Yeshiva Gedola.  Typically, boys enter Yeshiva Gedola
 at 16-17.  A "seventh-year" Yeshiva boy would therefore be about 23-24.
 Most if not all Yeshiva boys don't yet "go out into the world to do for
 Klal Yisroel".  They usually start after marriage, at the earliest.

In today's world even a first year bochur in a good Yeshiva Gedolah is
at a level where he can help many people.  I am not suggesting that he
should give a regular shiur, or that he should take undue amounts of
time from his learning, but he certainly could, e.g. learn mishnayos
with a beginner (BT, or younder boy) once or twice a week.

Many Rabbonim have discussed how in today's world where there is such
desperate need for kiruv, we all have to do our part.

Daniel M. Israel
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

From: Chaim Mateh <chaimm@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:46:42 +0200
Subject: Re: Kollel

I had asked "Is this [Rabbis' salary from the Shul/community] not 'making
their own living'? "

To which  Uri Schild <uri@...> in vol 30#53 wrote:

<<No, not really - they receive money from the *community* for performing
their Rabbinic functions.>>

How is this different from the University Professor who does research
most of the day and might teach a few courses during the week.  Doesn't
he also receive a salary from the "community".  Is this also not
considered making a living?  And what about researchers who do research
_all_ the time, and teach nothing never. Are _they_ making a living?

Me:  >>Does the part-time Rav really feel that he gives enough of his time
to Torah advancement (that would be definition improve the quality of his
Rabbinics), and that the time that he gives to secular pursuits doesn't
decrease the quality of his Rabbinics?<<

Uri:  <<Well, all of the Gemarah Sages were "part-time" Rabbanim (except
for RASHBI :-).   Did they feel that they give enough of their time to
Torah advancement?....  In other words, our ancestors have been through the
same door too, and yet they ruled against "making Torah a spade to dig
with"... Why?  And why are we ruling differently now? What has changed?>>

You're not really comparing the Torah levels of the Gemoro Sages with us
today, are you?  It's obvious, to me at least, that we today are on a
much lower level than the previous generations.  I was taught many moons
ago that as the generations advance in time _away_ from Sinai, they
"decrease" in Torah learning, knowledge, etc etc.?

 From my experiences ( as a full-time working man for 20 years, and as a
67% Kollelnik for 4 years), the level of Torah knowledge, understanding,
scope, sharpness, etc, is vastly higher by Kolleniks versus
baalei-batim.  This should be self-evident, but your question requires
stating this.

<<In these days when halachic questions are likely to involve things
impossible to undertand without sufficient knowledge in modern technologies
and often science) - a healthy amount of "memory banks" will HAVE to be
filled with "secular" knowledge.  >>

Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach, and
yibodel-lechaim Rav Eliyashiv, and most of the great Poskim of yesterday
and today, did _not_ have formal secular educations.  When they needed
secular knowledge to rule on a Hallachic question, they brought in an
expert in the field who told them what they needed to know for the
Hallachic topic at hand.

Kol Tuv,


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:36:31 -0500
Subject: Mayim Achronim

Eitan Fiorino wrote:
> Certainly, according to this second reason [that Mayim Acharonim is in
> preparation for Birchas Hamazon], the idea that women might be exempt
> from mayim achronim owing to more careful eating habits would not
> work.

Actually, it might still work. Since she has washed her hands at the
beginning of the meal, then, if we posit the fact that a woman eats
fastidiously, perhaps this original washing is sufficient for the tefilla
(Birchas HaMazon) which takes place after the meal. (Whereas, men who eat
like slobs :-) must re-wash their hands in preparation for Birchas HaMazon.)

I think we find similar Halachic logic in the Gemara, e.g. the brocho on
wine before the seuda extends to cover wine drunk during the seuda, and
there is discussion in the Gemara (as I recall) about whether it might not
even extend to cover wine drunk after the meal in conjunction with Birchas
HaMazon. So perhaps the extension of the washing before the meal to extend
until after the meal for a fastidious eater is not so farfetched.


Joseph Geretz
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.


End of Volume 30 Issue 64