Volume 30 Number 70
                 Produced: Wed Jan  5  7:28:13 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

2 Suggestions for Recapturing the essense of Shabbath
         [Russell Hendel]
Adnei Hasadeh
         [Cheryl Maryles]
Airline Meals (2)
         [Harry Weiss, I. Harvey Poch]
Books for a Non-Observant Nephew
         [David and Toby Curwin]
Boro Park Eruv
         [Rose Landowne]
Counting Non Frum Jews for Minyan
         [Jeanette Friedman]
Eating in a Supermarket (3)
         [Perry Zamek, Joseph Geretz, Yeshaya Halevi]
Female Moyels
         [Ed Norin]
Kissing the Tzitzit
         [Yisrael Medad]


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:25:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 2 Suggestions for Recapturing the essense of Shabbath

Aviva Fee (v30n58) asks how to recapture the essence of Shabbath. She
complains that all the bar mitzvahs, kiddushes etc do not leave time for

Ah..but the purpose of shabbos is not introspection but rather its
purpose is to be a model of the next world where we study torah and do
chesed and don't have to worry about material needs. So if we spend our
time sharing simchas we have captured the essence of Shabbath.

Nevertheless I have two suggestions that might help. I was at a bar
mitzvah this past shabbos (what else?). The bar mitzvah boy made a
siyyum mishnayoth on Kodoshim at night and another siyyum on makoth
Shabbos afternoon. So one way to 'redeem' all the eating is to introduce
more Torah into them.

A second suggestion is a personal practice of mind at Kiddushim is to
talk to people about difficult rashis or laining issues. So the
suggestion here is to create a circle of friends that you can introspect
with on whatever you like to introspect.

Hope this helps
Russell Hendel; Phd Asa; Math; Towson; <RHendel@...>
Moderator Rashi is Simple; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/


From: Cheryl Maryles <C-Maryles@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 23:24:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Adnei Hasadeh

Gerald Schroeder in his books Genesis and the big bang and the science
of G-d discusses how adnei hasadeh might fit in to primate man. As far
as their relevance in the times of mishnayos, we must remember that the
Mishnah is talking (at least in part) of a tumas ohel issue. Therefore
the creature could be extinct but the question is very relevant if you
happen to discover a dead body of an adnei hasadeh. For example if you
hold like r' Yosi who says an adnei hasadeh transmits tumah in a tent
and you assume adnei hasadeh=Neanderthal man, then one would be tamei by
going to many natural history museums, so whether or not they are/were
extinct in the times of the Mishnah is not a factor in determining the
need to be discussed in the Mishnah.


From: Harry Weiss <harry.weiss@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 21:34:48 -0700
Subject: Airline Meals

Rachel Mastetsky asked about non Jews ordering Kosher meals on airlines.  

First, there is absolutely no prohibition what so ever of a non Jew
eating Kosher.

 There have been some discussions (I think on Soc Culture Jewish) in the
past about whether more usage of Kosher meals may cause airlines to
discontinue this service due to additional costs.  I don't think that is
a problem.  The airlines have already determined that any additional
cost in the Kosher meal is worth it to them to make sure they sell the
ticket.  The more in demand something is, the more likely the airlines
will continue it.  In addition, more usage may result in some costs
savings to the airline.


From: I. Harvey Poch <af945@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:27:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Airline Meals

Rachel Mestetsky's question about encouraging a non-Jew to order kosher
food, reminds me of an incident when a business associate and I flew
from Toronto to New York. He sat near the back of the plane, separate
from me, because he was a smoker (old story, I guess). A very religious
couple and their baby sat in the same row, but would not engage in
conversation with him. Since his ticket and mine were on the same
computer file, and I had ordered a kosher meal, he got one, too. As a
result, by the time we landed in New York, he was best of friends with
this young family, and was helping them remove their stroller and other
hand items from the plane. - A great reverse kiddush hashem.

Back to the question - there are a number of non-Jewish sects -
Christian and Moslem - whose adherents buy kosher food, especially meat,
as a matter of course. If the person in question feels s/he is getting
better quality food (which may or may not be the case) or better service
(special meals are often served first), why should they not do so. In
the end, all of us will benefit from the increased popularity of the

I. Harvey Poch  (8-)>


From: David and Toby Curwin <curwin@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:17:49 +0200
Subject: Books for a Non-Observant Nephew

I think one of the best books out there is "The Jewish Primer" by
Mail-Jewish member Rabbi Dr. Shmuel Himelstein.

David Curwin
Kvutzat Yavne, Israel


From: Rose Landowne <ROSELANDOW@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:40:10 EST
Subject: Re: Boro Park Eruv

<< Basically there is an old Psak Halacha from Rav Moshe stating that
even if it is possible to construct a structurally permissible eruv in
Manhattan and Brooklyn, the volume of people and traffic on shabbos
creates too many problems in terms of assuming that the eruv will stay
up all of shabbos (there have always been more lenient opinions) but
most of the Yeshivish (e.g., Torah VaDaas, Chaim Berlin) and Chassidishe
world agrees with Rav Moshe. >>

The problem that I always heard existed for constructing a Manhattan
eruv was related to the possibililty that Manhattan would be a reshut
harabim d'oraita, an area which would have 600, 000 people crossing one
point during the course of a day, creating an area which by definition
cannot be enclosed by an eruv.  

Rose Landowne


From: Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:41:06 EST
Subject: Re: Counting Non Frum Jews for Minyan

One Shabbos in May, 1985, (the same Shabbos prior to Reagan's visiting
Bitburg) Rabbi Avi Weiss was staying in the museum at Bergen-Belsen with
9 men.  A friend of mine from Poland, who is a secular Jew, had gone
over to the museum to scope the territory for the official Second
Generation protest to the president's visit first to BB and then to
B. Lo and behold, there was no minyan for Shabbos until he turned up. He
was pressed into service, so to speak, and Rabbi Weiss was then able to
lead a full Shabbos service including leining in that place.

Any protests to that would have been ignored, and in my opinion,
rightfully so.  I also remember that in Crown Heights, we would often
have people over for Shalos Seudot, and often there would be only 8 or 9
men to daven maariv, when the men didn't want to walk the ten blocks or
so to the Agudah. My father and brother would open the door to the
house, go out into the street, and bring in the neighbor, not religious,
who would otherwise not be davening, or others who were walking, to
complete the minyan and maariv.

My father saw it as an opportunity to be mekarev people, and if he were
alive today, he would be very, very upset with the new hatred and
intolerance directed at non-frum people. He would say that it was a
guarantee to make Jews hate Judaism, and would fight against it.

Jeanette Friedman


From: Perry Zamek <jerusalem@...>
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:54:14 +0200
Subject: Eating in a Supermarket

Chaim Shapiro, in MJ v30n61, asks:

>Can one eat or drink from a product they intend to purchase at a
>store before they actually pay for it?  Truth be told, before paying,
>the product still belongs to the store.  Does the intent to purchase
>allow its use prior to ownership?

If I recall the relevant Gemara correctly, the act of picking up a
product for purchase constitutes a kinyan, and what is left is to pay
the seller.  So, the product does not, in halachic terms, belong to the

Having said that, there may be other considerations:
 1) Dina de-Malkhuta (local law) may determine that the product remains
the property of the store until full payment is made.
 2) Marit Ayin/Chillul Hashem -- the majority of people seeing the
purchaser eat might assume that he has no intention to pay, given that
this is a frequent form of shoplifting.
 3) Avak Gezel -- if one eats in the store, extra effort must be made to
clean the store, for which no payment is being collected.

So, it would be better not to eat in the store. Afterwards, all that
remains is to remember to say a bracha ;-)

Perry Zamek   | A Jew should live his life in such a way
Peretz ben    | that people can say of him: "There goes
Avraham       | a living Kiddush Hashem".

From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:38:33 -0500
Subject: Eating in a Supermarket

Yossie Abramson wrote:
> Actually, according to Halacha, once a person picks up the product it
> belongs to him. You acquire an object by picking something up (a
> yarmulka at a wedding for example). You just have to pay in order for
> the owner to allow out the store without shooting you. However, in a Mom
> or Pop store, if you take a can of soda, or give some candy to your
> child, nobody raises an eye, as long as you remember to pay.

Chazal speak negatively about the practice of eating in the Marketplace.

Ochel B'Shuk - Domeh L'Kelev
One who eats in the marketplace is comparable to a dog

There are a couple of explanations I've heard in this regard:

1. Eating in a public place is boorish, in terms of Derech Eretz, simple
manners. Eating in a supermarket might be considered boorish, as well.

2. The statement refers to one who samples wares in the marketplace,
without intending to pay for what he samples. Indeed, this is very much
canine behavior, similar to a dog who wanders through the marketplace,
sampling food here and there without any intention of paying. This might
not restrict you from sampling, or eating, where you intend to pay for

3. I'm not sure though, I may have heard an explanation which applies
this to *any* sampling before paying, since the sampler may subsequently
forget to pay for what they have partaken of. This needs more reasearch
and I can't propose this now as a definite P'shat. However, If this
explanation could be confirmed, it would weigh in favor of not eating
goods before you pay for them. Can someone else confirm if they have
ever heard such a P'shat? If not, forget I mentioned it.

Kol Tuv,

Joseph Geretz
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.

From: Yeshaya Halevi <CHIHAL@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:15:01 EST
Subject: Re: Eating in a Supermarket

        Folks, in retail food biz this is called "grazing," and creates
an instant Hilul Hashem (Desecration of God's Name).  Forget any lenient
opinion you may see, and remember that this is an instant instance where
marat ayeen (appearance's sake) carries the day: plrase, don't do it.
    Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>)


From: Ed Norin <EngineerEd@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:37:21 EST
Subject: Female Moyels

This last Shabbot Sh'mot, we read how Tsipporah saved Moshe and her
son's life by circumsizing her son.  I have never read anything
criticizing Tsipporah for her actions.  Therefore, can a woman be a
kosher moyel.  Does it matter if the Father is not able to fulfill his


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 21:37:43 +0200
Subject: Kissing the Tzitzit

Yosef Gilboa wrote in response to my comment that there seems to be
little differentiation between kissing tzitzit and other physical
movements during T'filla that:

>When you kiss the tsitsit, you must stop moving your lips (as opposed to
>the other activities that you mention) which forces you to introduce a
>pause which contradicts the masoretic (and logical) punctuation as
>indicated by the t`amim. The only place where a pause coincides with the
>word "tsitsit" is "v-haya lachem l-tsitsit". On the other hand, looking
>at the tsitsit without kissing them does not interfere with the
>punctuation since looking does not involve the mouth.

I would suggest that you are off the mark.  I reviewed the new sefer
"Ishei Yisrael" (I'm impressed by its over 700 pages).  He quotes the
Mishneh Brurah, Kaf HaChayim, Arukh HaShulchan, Shut B'tzel HaChochma,
Leket HaKemach, Makor HaChayim and others.  The only "interruption" not
permitted during the Recitation of the Sh'ma is conversation and even
that in an unnecessary sense, sometimes in between paragraphs amd
sometimes in the midst of them.  Without being exhaustive - one can hint
or suggest with movement of hands or eyes.  One can write a note.  One
should stand if one's father or Rav enters the synagogue during the
recitation.  One can say "assuta" to a sneeze or even answer "amen" to
the belssings of Ha-kel hakadosh" or "shomei'ah t'fila" and even urinate
but after washing hands, no bracha (see the Mishnah Brurah, 23 to
Chapter Samech-vav where most of the above is mentioned).

Kissing of the Tzitzit is no problem, it would seem.

and as for Boruch Merzel's comment that:

>Yisrael Medad is mistaken in believing that the "Major Poskem" prefer
>that one kiss the Tzitzis after each mention.  In fact the poskem all
>frowned on the custom of kissing the Tzitis when it first appeared,
>(some rather strongly) as "Y'hirus" ( ostentatious behavior, wanting to
>appear truly zealous ) But people being people and eager to demonstrate
>their "frumkeit" , and no one wanting to appear less zealous than his
>neighbor, the custom took hold, until now we have people discussing it
>as though it were absolute halacha.

 a) if I wrote that kissing is "preferred" (i don''t recall) , I was
wrong.  I meant that it was permitted.
 b) as for ostentatious frumkeit, I would be the last to support such
 c) as for "absolute halacha", I don't know what is meant by that.  I
think that with all sorts of customs in all sorts of areas, the best
that we can do is first clarify what is permitted and what is
prohibited.  Once we get the parameters down, then we can really argue
over what's important.

Yisrael Medad 


End of Volume 30 Issue 70