Volume 30 Number 72
Produced: Thu Jan 6 6:29:50 US/Eastern 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Administrivia - Perl and/or Shell Programming help
[Avi Feldblum]
Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan (7)
[Daniel P Faigin, Hadassa Goldsmith, Sheldon Meth, Tszvi
Klugerman, Carl Singer, Joseph Geretz, Avi Feldblum]
Less Observant Jews in a Minyan
[Ephraim Dardashti]
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From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:34:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia - Perl and/or Shell Programming help
Hello,
As I continue to focus on improving the mail-jewish processes, and as it's
been a while since I have done any serious programming, if there is a
mail-jewish subscriber with Perl and/or shell programming experience that
would be willing to assist me in writing/modifing some perl scripts please
let me know.
I had some questions about how I use the Fullindex file to identify when
we have discussed topics in the past. I do most of this in a Unix
environment, and had not really thought about how to best do this in a
Windows environment. The FullIndex file is basically a simple text file
where each line starts with the "title" of the submission, and it is
followed by the reference of what issue or issues contain that subject.
In a Unix environment, I use the "grep" (get regular expression) command
to search for a particular word or phrase in one window. The output of the
grep command is all the lines in the file that match the word or phrase
being searched for. I usually do that in one window, while I have my Web
Browser open in another window to the mail-jewish home page. I then use
either the Mail-Jewish Hyper-text edition (if the volume is 18 or later)
or the Mail-Jewish volume archives (for any volume) to quickly go to the
issue and submission I find from the Fullindex file.
If you want to do it purely within the Web environment, use the
file-new-window within Netscape or Explorer to get two web windows open,
in one click on the Fullindex link, and use Edit-Find_in_Page to search
for the word/phrase, then use the other window to go to one of the archive
links to look up what you find from the Fullindex file.
[One of things I am looking some help for is to modify the Perl script
that generates the Fullindex file to make it more web friendly, so you
will not have to do this.]
Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...>
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From: Daniel P Faigin <faigin@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:15:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan
In v30n17, Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...> writes:
> However, I've seen a few occasions where we were stuck for a minyan
> (in a professional office) and one of the fellows went out and came
> back with a non-frum co-worker who just stood there, and didn't
> daven. Now, to me, this fellow's presence does not indicate the
> slightest desire to pray at all. At most, he's just attending to help out
> his co-workers because they need a favor. So in this context, what is
> the justification for including such a fellow in the minyan?
Being Reform, I've been in this position, and I can suggest two
possibilities:
1) He may be praying silently or internally, and there may be no
outward expression. This is often true when one cannot keep up with
the Hebrew of those who have memorized everything.
2) Even if he isn't praying, his inclusion provides additional exposure
to what Judaism is, and helps teach him about another aspect of prayer.
Who knows what effect this will have in the future.
We should never write off somebody. Exposure to Judaism, in whatever
form, is beneficial and helps to counter the myriad other influences
that bombard us today.
Daniel
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From: Hadassa Goldsmith <hbgold@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:47:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan
In response to Mr. Geretz about the non-frum man who completed the
minyan: This man followed the mitzvah of V'Ahavta L'Reyacha Kamocha -
Love your neighbor as yourself. He knew that he was needed to help
someone else out (i.e. the other nine men) and he agreed to do so. Not
only does he get a mitzvah, but the person who asked him to join in gets
a mitzvah as well for getting him to fulfill this mitzvah. And who
knows, maybe sometime in the future this man will be encouraged to learn
more about Judaism knowing that he "counts" even if he is not yet
religious.
Hadassa Goldsmith
OPERATION REFUAH
www.operationrefuah.org
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From: Sheldon Meth <SHELDON.Z.METH@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:17:03 -0500
Subject: Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan
Joseph Geretz wrote "I've seen a few occasions where we were
> a favor. So in this context, what is the justification for including
> such a fellow in the minyan?"
Isn't the Hallachah that if there are 6 people who haven't davened, then
4 more who have can be included to make a minyan, even though the latter
just "stand there and don't daven"?
-Sheldon Meth
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From: Tszvi Klugerman <Klugerman@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:27:52 EST
Subject: Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan
It's been a while since I've looked at the halachot, but I believe the
minimum number of active "prayers" is six with the other four making up
the requisite ten needed for the public prayers granted they have to
answer amen at the appropriate points.
tszvi
[The "granted" above is probably the biggest question I would have about
the practice, as if the person does not know much, they might stand/sit
and be still as a sign of respect, but might not know to Amen. Is the
halakha that ten people who actually say Amen is required? Mod.]
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From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:11:25 EST
Subject: Re: Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan
At least this "non-frum" Jew came and helped out 9 other FRUM jews. And
that is a Mitzvah. It's unlikely that you will be mekarav him if you
consider only what he didn't do (didn't daven), as opposed to what he
did do. Next time go over, tell him you really appreciate his taking
time from his busy day. Maybe provide a English-Hebrew siddur that he
might be able to use. Who knows -- he's already demonstrated what is
called "a pintel Yid" If it all that comes out of it is that he know
your name and that Joseph is a frum guy who doesn't stare at me but says
hello -- then you've accomplished something.
Carl Singer
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From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:00:34 -0500
Subject: Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan
Carl Singer wrote:
> At least this "non-frum" Jew came and helped out 9 other FRUM jews.
> And that is a Mitzvah. It's unlikely that you will be mekarav him if
> [snip, rest is right above]
Sure, you've definitely accomplished something, but did you discharge
your obligation of davening with a Minyan? that was the original
question.
I'm sure we can all agree on the importance of Kiruv, but your statement
doesn't address the fundamental question about whether he can be counted
for a minyan in his current state. Also, my reservation is not based on
the fact that he didn't daven. Indeed from a Halachic perspective you
need a count of 10, but only 6 people need to be davening. My
reservation is based on the fact, that unlike your original scenario
which used the circumstance of one's voluntary attendance as de-facto
proof that some sort of acceptance of G-d is present, in the case I
mentioned, there was no spontaneous demonstration of wishing to
participate. Indeed the fellow would never have participated at all (he
didn't come yesterday, he dodn't come today until he was asked, and he
probably won't come tomorrow if he's not asked) had he not been
asked. So can this fellow be counted towards a Minyan?
Also, the noble cause of Kiruv, is not in and of itself a blanket
justification for the abrogation of other Halachic considerations. As a
simple example, on the occasions when I have hosted non-frum people at
my table, I have always been careful not to put out wine which was not
Mevushal. The importance of Kiruv notwithstanding, there are still
issues regarding irreligious people which must be dealt with, and cannot
be glossed over, even for the sake of Kiruv.
This discussion brings to mind another occasion, you tell me what you
think. It was on Shabbos, and while on my way to my regular Minyan for
Mincha, the rabbi of a different shul was standing outside trying to get
a minyan together. While I don't normally daven at this shul, I agreed
for the sake of a minyan. Well, it was getting late and we only had 9,
and I voiced my concern that we might not have a minyan after all. The
rabbi assured me that a 10th man was on his way. As we were standing, a
fellow comes walking down the block takes a final drag on his cigarette
and tossed it into the gutter. I thought nothing of this until the
fellow approached us and said 'Good Shabbos Rabbi'. This was our 10th!
I was shocked, flabergasted, outraged and a bit heartbroken as well. (No
I'm not a Tzaddik, and there's no question in my mind that my own
Shabbos observance must in some way be deficient for me to have been put
in a position to witness this desecration.) I just walked away, and went
to Mincha at my regular shul.
So now I ask you, what does Halacha dictate, regarding my obligations in
this scenario? I'm not saying that I condemn this fellow, I don't know
who he is, what his upbringing was and I'm not judging him. I certainly
think that his situation is a tragedy and we should certainly strive to
be Mekarev him. But I'm asking you about my obligation to daven with a
Minyan. Would this fellow qualify in his situation? (Remember, not 30
seconds ago he was desecrating the Shabbos.) And if he doesn't count
towards a Minyan, should I sacrifice my davening with a Minyan, for
whatever nebulous Kiruv implications *this one encounter* might have?
There will be time for Kiruv later, but right now I need a Minyan. So
what do you think, did I do the right thing or not?
Let's hope we merit to see the day when such questions are no longer
relevant.
Kol Tuv,
Joseph Geretz
(<jgeretz@...>)
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.
(www.FPSNow.com)
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From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:39:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Counting non-Frum Jews for a Minyan
On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Joseph Geretz wrote [again right above]:
> This discussion brings to mind another occasion, you tell me what you think.
> [Snip]
> a 10th man was on his way. As we were standing, a fellow comes walking down
> the block takes a final drag on his cigarette and tossed it into the gutter.
> I thought nothing of this until the fellow approached us and said 'Good
> Shabbos Rabbi'. This was our 10th!
> [Snip]
> So now I ask you, what does Halacha dictate, regarding my obligations in
> this scenario? I'm not saying that I condemn this fellow, I don't know who
I think the case you have just described is the perfect example to
support all the current poskim who hold that the halakhic category of
"mechalel shabos befarhesia" - "one who desecrates Shabbos publicly",
with it's various halakhic ramifications cannot be applied to the average
non-observant person today. The meaning behind this characterization, as I
understand it, is that by publicly desecrating Shabbos, the person is
making a public statement that he cuts himself off from Judaism and the
Jewish people. It is that "public statement" which causes us to treat this
person in certain ways. The person you just described, while he is nichsul
[stumbles] in his observance of an important mitzvah - Shabbos, makes the
public statement of "Gut Shabbos, Rabbi" and walks into the shul to daven.
So based on your statements above, I see no halakhic reason to indicate
that the above mentioned person would not qualify for a minyan, and as
such the only halakhic activities I see are that you:
1) Prevented 9 people from davening with a minyan by walking out
2) May have missed Tefillah bizman [in it's proper time] as you state that
it was getting close to sunset.
3) Most likely left the Rabbi and some of the congregation with a bad
feeling about "frum" jews.
So I find it hard to understand how you view what you did as positive or
required. To further clarify though, I think that the next time this Rabbi
tries to stop you for being a tenth at his minyan, you can use the
information you now know to decide between {possibly preventing 9 people
from davening with a minyan - as they may get someone else} vs. {davening
with a minyan of more observant people}.
Avi Feldblum
<mljewish@...>
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From: Ephraim Dardashti <EDardashti@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:49:54 EST
Subject: Less Observant Jews in a Minyan
If on erev Yom Kippur we make a public declaration that "anu mitpalelim
im avaryanim," why should we hold back from praying with other Jews on
others days of the week? Let me share with you a story that has shaped
my life and is with me everyday of my life. In the summer of 1973, I
was a volunteer at Kibbutz Hatzerim a distance of a few kilometers from
Beer Sheva. One Shabbat morning, I rose bright and early, put on a
clean white shirt, a pair of clean shorts, my Nimrod sandals and walked
in the desert towards Beer Sheva looking for a synagogue. As I reached
the city, I asked a stranger where is there a synagogue close by. He
informed me that around the corner there was a synagogue, he said that
at the given address I should open the door that lead to a garden and
that beyond the courtyard I would find a congregation. This was in the
hot summer in the Negev. The directions were perfect, I followed the
instructions and found what I was looking for. To my shame I found
myself in the midst of Hassidim fully dressed for Shabbat with shtrimel
and long sleeve shirts. I felt embarrassed for not being properly
dressed and fearing that I might have ruined their Shabbat. I found a
seat and tried my best to make myself invisible. As the qriyat ha Torah
was approaching, a hassid approached me and wished me a Shabbat Shalom
and asked "Kevodo, Cohen, Levy oh Yisrael?" I responded: Yisrael, and
gave him my full name. I was called to the Torah........ On that day,
I learned the meaning of Ahavat Hinam, and Qiddush HaShem.
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End of Volume 30 Issue 72