Volume 30 Number 91
                 Produced: Fri Jan 14  7:09:39 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Meals
         [Zev Sero]
Cholov Yisroel
Easing into Shabbos (3)
         [Gershon Dubin, <RAZLEENERS@...>, Carl Singer]
Israeli Bonds/ Medinat Yisroell
         [William J Scherman]
Issurim across timezones
         [Oren Popper]
Lakewood "freeze" and kollel
         [Rivkah Tuttle]
Non-Kosher Milk (2)
         [Roger & Naomi Kingsley, Leah S. Gordon]
Returning Basar BeChalav
         [Todd Davidovits]
         [Mark Steiner]


From: Zev Sero <Zev@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:01:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Airline Meals 

Jonathan Grodzinski <JGrodz@...> wrote:

>I was annoyed at having my decision making taken away from me. If I want
>to eat a roll without washing, I would far prefer to do so with a "Mei
>Peyrot" roll. I might prefer to wrap my hands and eat it. I might even
>prefer to eat it separately from my meal as I might a piece of cake, and
>in such a situation everyone would agree that a "Mei Peyrot" roll
>requires no washing.
>Why could not the roll be made with "Mei Peyrot", and the attached note
>point out that if one eats the roll as part of the meal one should wash
>"Netilat Yadayim", however if it was inconvenient to wash , better to
>put the roll away and eat it separately from the meal?

The problem is that it's not as simple as that.  If one eats a small
amount of pat haba'a bekisnin (and we are assuming for the moment that
bread made with more fruit juice than other liquids is in this category)
as the basis of a meal from which one will be satisfied, it is *not*
clear that one must wash and bench.  The smallest amount for which it is
clear that one must wash and bench is, IIRC, the size of 4 eggs, which
is considerably larger than the roll you get in an airline meal.
Instead, making one `mezonot' roll the basis of a meal brings one into
the dreaded Safek Zone, where one says mezonot because `safek berachot
lehakel' but a yerei shamayim is exhorted to avoid the situation and eat
a kezayit of real bread.

Zev Sero                Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day;
<zsero@...>       set him on fire and he'll be warm for the
                        rest of his life.   - Ankh-Morpork proverb


From: <ESTABESTAH@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:02:19 EST
Subject: re: Cholov Yisroel

Just  a note. 

 From what i learned Reb Moshe's Kula legabey cholov yisroel was
instituted based on the presumption that the companies fear the fines
they might be obligated in if they use cholov tameh.  However, Reb
Moshe's psak was made when bottling and milking were done on site and
the FDA inspected constantly.  Nowadays, the FDA pays a visit once in 2
 In the year 5740 ('79/'80 not sure exactly when) there was a convention
where Reb Moshe said he had charata on that psak.  In fact one couple
got a brocho from Reb Moshe and the next year when they had a boy, they
brought him to Reb Moshe and asked what kind of milk they should give
him.  Reb Moshe got up and said he never heard of such a heter.
 In the summer of '93 the cows in the US got sick and underwent
operations.  Their stomachs were punctured-so then there was a question
of the cows being tameh. Nowadays, 10% of the cows have similair
diseases. (lemayseh, this obviously doesn't pose a problem since it's
batel berov (bediavad)) if anybody disputes the accuracy or sourcing of
this information feel free to e mail me and i will enumerate the


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:48:34 -0500
Subject: Easing into Shabbos

From: A.J.Gilboa <bfgilboa@...>
<<Concerning Carl Singer's post -
In this connection, I believe that the Shulhan `Aruch requires that the
man of the house actively participate in Shabbat preparations, even if
it is only sharpening the kitchen knives or arranging the wicks (and
oil) for nerot shabbat. I seem to remember that even "talmide hachamim"
are required to stop their studies in order to participate actively in
hachanot shabbat.
Can someone supply the sources?>>

	Shabbos 119a,  quoted by SA OC 250:1


From: <RAZLEENERS@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 05:56:30 EST
Subject: Re: Easing into Shabbos

<< In this connection, I believe that the Shulhan `Aruch requires that the
 man of the house actively participate in Shabbat preparations, even if
 it is only sharpening the kitchen knives or arranging the wicks (and
 oil) for nerot shabbat.>>

OH 263:3 after stating that the obligation of kindling nayr shabbat is mostly 
on the women, the Beer Haytav (and MB) citing "ktaveem" says that "mekol 
makom tove shaeesh yitakayn hanerot." [In any case, it is proper that
the man arrange/fix the candles/lights/wicks. Mod.]

<< I seem to remember that even "talmide hachamim"
 are required to stop their studies in order to participate actively in
 hachanot shabbat. >>

See OH 251:2 in Rama based on a Yerushalmee (but see Beur Halacha, "vyash 
leadam limaet"): "vyash leadam limaat ktzat bileemoodo berev shabbat kidai 
sheyacheen tzorchai shabbat." [A person should slightly limit his
learing on Erev Shabbat in order to prepare the needs of Shabbat. Mod.]

From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:17:42 EST
Subject: Re: Easing into Shabbos

The minhag of charring the candle wicks erev Shabbos is observed in many
households.  As a matter of chinuch once our sons were old enough, they
got responsibility for setting up the candles (getting them out of the
box, cleaning out the liechter and inserting them.)  Charring (and
therefore playing with matches) was defered until a bit later.

Carl Singer


From: William J Scherman <zscherman@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:36:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Israeli Bonds/ Medinat Yisroell

Dear Rabbi Bulka,
	You hit the nail on the head!  Many people do not support the
Medina, upon Halakhic authority.  Especially when there are so many
Halakhically "Kosher" charities of Eretz Yisroel to give to. Why the
sense of astonishment?  

Z'ev Scherman


From: Oren Popper <oren@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:17:14 -0500
Subject: Issurim across timezones

In MJ v30n57 Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...> wrote:
> But I understand that very different halachos apply to a situation where
> I own Chometz which is in a time zone where it is currently Pesach, even
> if I am in a time zone where it is NOT Pesach. I have read in many 
> places that this *is* forbidden, and many rabbis have arranged their
> Sale Of Chometz to include such times and locations.

AFAIK you are mistaken on the chometz part. Bi'ur Chometz is a chovas
gavro (onus of person, as opposed to onus of object - chovas
cheftzo). Based on this the Lubavitcher Rebbe writes (and warns) that
those traveling eastbound (obviously not crossing the dateline - which
is a halachic subject of it's own) should sell their Chometz were they
will be during Pesach.  

Oren Popper


From: Rivkah Tuttle <chcorp@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:49:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Lakewood "freeze" and kollel

I dated a guy who was on his way to Lakewood, and his explanation was
that if a bochur was already dating a girl when he entered the yeshiva,
he was to write her name on a piece of paper and seal it in an envelope.
If the bochur got engaged during the first few months in the yeshiva,
the envelope was opened. If the kallah's name did not match the name in
the envelope... I'm not sure what the "punishment" was, but it may have
been something like he was not welcome to remain in the yeshiva/kollel
after marrying.

I went to a good Bais Yakov high school, and we were told that the only
acceptable situation for us was that we were to marry men who would stay
in kollel as long as possible. We were not to go to college (in fact,
the English principal came in to the classroom to give out the SAT
booklets and said "I am required to give you these", in other words:
"don't take this test"), and the only acceptable way of supporting our
husbands was to be a teacher. One of my classmates in the Seminary of
this school was under a tremendous amount of pressure from the teachers
because she publicly stated multiple times that she wanted to marry a
"working guy", which she ultimately did, immediately after the year
ended. She was already engaged during the year. I was in fact a teacher
for a year, but then switched to an office job, but still in a school.
When I met one of my teachers in the street, she let me know quite
clearly that she was very disappointed in me for not being a teacher.

I had these concepts drilled into me so much, that I would not date a
"working guy" for at least 3 years after seminary. My husband was the
first full-time "working guy" that I dated. I would not have dated him
at all a year before that. I have to thank my mother for insisting that
I learn another trade other than teaching. I am where I am today,
because of her insistence that I attend COPE and learn computer
programming. I am also not struggling to make ends meet, Baruch Hashem,
unlike many of my friends.

Guess what happened. A classmate came back to the school a year or two
later, and applied for a position in the English department. She was
told that "we prefer our English (i.e. secular studies) teachers to have
at least 2 years of college".

Kol Tuv,


From: Roger & Naomi Kingsley <rogerk@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:46:16 +0200
Subject: re: Non-Kosher Milk

From: Daniel Cohn <dcohn@...>
<Does anybody know whether it is a scientifically proven fact that
cheese or butter can not be made from non-kosher animals milk, as chazal
I think assert?>

It is a question of fat content - cows' milk (also sheep, goats) has a
relatively high proportion of fat - hence good for butter and cheese.
Asses' milk (which I think is what chazal were worried about) has a low
fat content, and is no good for butter/cheese.

Naomi Kingsley

From: Leah S. Gordon <lsgordon@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:20:44 -0800
Subject: Non-Kosher Milk

I don't know about cheese, but it is certainly possible to make butter
(milk-fat) from any mammal's milk.  Specifically, sea mammals and humans
have milk that is especially high in fat...though I suppose human butter
would be both kosher and parve.  (Right?)

As for the previously mentioned 'scientific fact' in a milk psak about
how you can't determine the animal of origin in a laboratory, this is
also false.  Each mammal has a different 'milk-print' in categories such
as protein, fat, lactose and enzymes, as well as lots of other
ingredients (like antibodies), some of which have yet to be identified.
These ratios are quite different in different mammals, though similar
between genetically similar animals.  For instance, mammals whose brains
must develop significantly (primates, elephants, dolphins) have high
levels of fat, while big muscular [dumber] animals like cows have high
levels of protein.  (This is just one of the reasons that babies usually
can't drink straight cows' milk with good results.)

--Leah S. Gordon


From: Todd Davidovits <Ruckus95@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:46:35 EST
Subject: Returning Basar BeChalav

If one bought dog food and later they found out that it was a mixture of
cooked milk and meat would they be permitted to return the food since
basar bechalav (cooked milk and meat) is prohibitted for benefit? and
further would the prohibition of basar bechalav(milk and meat ) only
apply to kosher meat ?

Todd Davidovits


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:01:29 +0200
Subject: Re: Whisky

I would like to congratulate the Moderator and the participants on an
extremely enlightening issue on whisky=whiskey in halakha.  If it is
true that the sherry casks are left outside for 12 months, then they are
completely permissable without any doubt, as the Talmud states (Avoda
Zara 34a).  If not, then the laws of "bitul" are what would have to be
applied, if possible.  Note that wine cannot nullify (mevatel) yayn
nesekh in any amount (Avoda Zara 63)--so bitul can be applied only for
whisky.  It is true that R. Tam (ad. loc.) holds that stam yaynom
"today" can be nullified in the ratio of 1:60, but the ratio of 1:6
could definitely NOT be used for a mixture of wine and wine, even
according to R. Tam.

On the issue of "humra" versus "kula", one final point which I don't
think has been mentioned yet.  The Talmud (Sukka 32b) tells us that R.
Kahana permitted hadassim on Sukkos which were not "meshuloshim" but
whose leaves were arranged in a two-one pattern.  And R. Aha, son of
Rava, went out of his way (the expression used is "mehader") to use
these hadassim, "because it came out of R. Kahana's mouth."  Note that
R. Kahana would certainly agree that hadassim meshuloshim are kosher.
Nevertheless, his talmid regarded it as a "humra" or "hidur" in the
mitzvah of kavod hatorah to use hadassim that R. Kahana permitted, even
though the other rabbis regarded them as totally unfit even after the
fact (bedieved).  According to them R. Aha was also making a beracha
levatalah; nevertheless R. Aha persisted.  Without meaning to decide
questions of Jewish law, which is not my prerogative, I believe this
gemara sheds new light on the concept of "humra."  The ultimate humra is
learning Torah lishmah.

Mark Steiner


End of Volume 30 Issue 91