Volume 30 Number 97
                 Produced: Mon Jan 17  6:09:26 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cholov Yisroel and chumros
         [Chaim Mateh]
Easing into Shabbos (2)
         [Joseph Geretz, Mark Goldenberg]
Eating in Stores Before Paying
         [Joseph Geretz]
Jews and Foodbanks
         [Wendy Baker]
Lakewood "freeze" and kollel
         [Frank Silbermann]
Mishebayrachs from Women
         [Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>]
Pidyon Shvuyim
         [Yisrael Medad]
Torah LeMoshe MiSinai
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Welcoming Guests
         [Sheldon Meth]
         [Ralph Zwier]


From: Chaim Mateh <chaimm@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:33:02 +0200
Subject: Cholov Yisroel and chumros

In v30#87, Jonathan J. Baker <jjbaker@...> wrote:

<<I haven't read the teshuvah in a long time, but roughly speaking the
logic is as follows.
5) Commercial milk (chalav hacompanies) in the US, thus, is just as
unadulterated as Jewish-supervised milk.  Therefore, IT IS CHOLOV YISROEL.
6) As a chumra, though, since we should support Jewish dairies, one should
buy Jewish milk.  I think he states this in terms of baal nefesh yachmir
(as for what a baal nefesh is, that's a whole  different discussion).>>

There are many Reb Moshe tshuvos on Cholov Yisroel.  I couldn't find in
any of them that the reason to be machmir (and to drink only cholov
Yisroel) is to support the Jewish dairies.

Also, not only does Reb Moshe _repeatedly_ say that a Baal Nefesh should
be machmir, he also refers to his ruling that cholov hacompanies is OK,
as a _kula_ (leniency)!

The main Reb Moshe tshuva on cholov Yisroel is Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah
part 1, #47, in which Reb Moshe wrotes: "and therefore, he who wants to
rely and be lenient (lehokel), he has a big reason and is
permitted... But even so, for baalei nefesh it is worthy to be
stringent... and so I do to be stringent for myself, but he who wants to
be lenient, he is doing as the din is...".

In Tshuvos 48 and 49 he continues the discussion.  He always refers to
his original psak (in #47) as a leniency (lehokel) and always says that
it's worthy for a baal nefesh to be stringent. BTW, these tshuvos
(47-49) were written in 5714.

In Yoreh Deah part 2, tshuva 35 (written in 5730), Reb Moshe writes,
"Regarding cholov hacompanies that I clarified... in tshuva 47 ... that
there isn't any issur (prohibition) of cholov akum unseen by a Jew, but
even so it is worthy for the baal nefesh to be machmir (stringent), that
for this reason it is certainly worthy for the menahalim of Yeshivos
ktanos that they should give their students milk of those companies that
have a Jew supervising..., and even though it is more expensive... and
the financial situation of the Yeshivos is tight (dachuk)...so that
because of this some Yeshivos are lenient, even so it is worthy to be
stringent because this too is a chinuch (educational) issue that they
should know that it's worthy for Bnei Torah (=baal nefesh?) to be
stringent even when there is a chashash (doubt, possibility) of issur
(prohibition).... But far away places that don't have company milk with
Jewish supervision, and it is very difficult to get milk with Jewish
supervision..., even individuals needn't be stringent."

We see that the reason for being stringent is not because of Jewish
dairies, but rather to go a bit farther away from a possible issur
(chashash issur in cholov hacompanies).  Is this not the underlying
reason behind chumros (stringencies)?  It also appears from the above
tshuva, that in 5730, Reb Moshe held that relying on his leniency is for
shaas hadchak (difficult) situations.

<<So what R' Moshe did was to REDEFINE what constitutes Cholov Yisroel.
People who drink, e.g., Dairylea, are drinking Cholov Yisroel JUST AS
MUCH AS people who drink, e.g., Goldenflow.>>

This doesn't come through from studying Reb Moshe's tshuvos.  Cholov
Yisroel is cholov Yisroel as we all understand it.  Reb Moshe ruled a
leniency that we can consider cholov hacompanies to be equal to cholov
Yisroel.  If you like, we can say that someone who relies on Reb Moshe's
leniency, is drinking cholov Yisroel.  But we mustn't lose sight of Reb
Moshe's own words about his own ruling: that it is indeed a leniency (in
general, and for shaas hadchak in specific) and it is better to be

Kol Tuv,


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:53:26 -0500
Subject: Easing into Shabbos

A.J.Gilboa wrote:
> I seem to remember that even "talmide hachamim"
> are required to stop their studies in order to participate actively in
> hachanot shabbat.
> Can someone supply the sources?>>

See the Gemara in Kiddushin on Daf 41:A where the Gemara is discussing
that it is better to perform a mitzva personally, than through a
Shaliach (agent). The Gemara describes how Rav Safra and Rava would
personally get involved in the preparations for Shabbos. Rav Safra would
roast the head [of a cow?] and Rava would salt the fish for Shabbos.

Kol Tuv,

Joseph Geretz
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.

From: Mark Goldenberg <GOLDDDS@...>
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:43:54 EST
Subject: Re: Easing into Shabbos

     Just a cute anectdote regarding this discussion.  An Observant
friend who went to work for a large NY law firm, which employed a lot of
Shomer Shabbos lawyers, was asked by his secretary on the first Friday
of his employment, "Do you celebrate that Friday afternoon Jewish
holiday?"  "What holiday?" he asked.  "Rusha Homa!!"

     Sorry it's Friday afternoon, and I gotta run.......

Mark Goldenberg
Beverly Hills, CA


From: Joseph Geretz <jgeretz@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:04:52 -0500
Subject: Eating in Stores Before Paying

Chaim Shapiro wrote:

> Joseph Geretz says, <<I don't assume that the owners have intention to
> grant ownership to the customer, until the customer purchase pays for
> it. (At most, the placing of an item in your cart gives the customer a
> precedence, over other customers, to subsequently purchase that
> item.)>>
> I must at this point ask, couldn't that precedence also give you the
> right to begin eating from it?

I don't think so, because precedence does not equal ownership. We find
precedence discussed in other places in Halacha. For example, if your
neighbor wants to sell his field which borders on your field, then you
have what's called 'rights of first refusal'. Which means that your
neighbor must offer you the option to buy the field before anyone
else. Now even if you intend to ultimately excercise your option, your
rights of precedence don't give you the right to start using it before
you actually acquire it from the current owner.

Sam Gamoran wrote:
> I'm in Fort Worth Texas this week visiting Motorola stateside.  I just
> went into a supermarket where the shopping cart has a red bottle/cup
> holder on the side that says on it "Enjoy a Coke now - pay at the
> checkout".  Under this circumstance, I cannot see why it wouldn't be
> permitted to drink in the store.

No doubt. however, in this circumstance, the shopkeeper explicitly
states approval to drink before paying. In other cases, where permission
is *not* explicitly stated, permission is not necessarily granted.

 From my experience working behind a pizza counter, I can tell you that
the owner, my boss, used to get very annoyed at those who ordered and
then sat down to eat without paying. You'd be surprised how many people
forgot details of their order or even walked out (accidentally, I'm
sure) without paying altogether.

Kol Tuv,

Joseph Geretz
Focal Point Solutions, Inc.


From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:57:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Jews and Foodbanks

I agree with David Cohen about making the assumption that there are no
poor Jews who might need foodbanks or such aid.  I have a difficult time
getting many people to realize that there are Jewish homeless in NYC.
When we have our drives for Project Ore which provides hot lunch and a
place to spend the day and, hopefully, some social services for Jewish
homeless I get such doubt of the existance of these people.  Many are
mentally ill, drug addicts or alcoholic.  Yes there are Jewish

We are mindful of this when we give our chametz to various places.  
Wendy Baker


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 100 20:46:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject:  Lakewood "freeze" and kollel

In Vol30 #91 Rivkah Tuttle wrote:
> I went to a good Bais Yakov high school, and we were told that the only
> acceptable situation for us was that we were to marry men who would stay
> in kollel as long as possible.  ... One of my classmates in the Seminary
> of this school was under a tremendous amount of pressure from the teachers
> because she publicly stated multiple times that she wanted to marry a
> "working guy"

This may have been the Litvishe Yeshivishe attitude even as far back as
a hundred years ago.  I remember reading the memoirs of a brilliant
Russian Jew who was pressured as a youth to study only Torah and not any
trade.  After a number of years of barely scratching out a meagre living
completely dependent upon the whims of the rich families who employed
him as a tutor for their children, against the will of his teachers he
managed to teach himself watch repair.

> We were not to go to college,

I must admit that even I, a "modern" guy with a PhD who taught computer
science at the university level for seven years, am disturbed by the way
universities these days are controlled by people who believe in
ideologies I consider evil.  It goes far beyond their being merely
irreligious.  I hope that by the time my children are grown, cheaper
web-based higher education will be available.

> and the only acceptable way of supporting our husbands was to be a teacher.
> Guess what happened. A classmate came back to the school a year or two
> later, and applied for a position in the English department. She was
> told that "we prefer our English (i.e. secular studies) teachers to have
> at least 2 years of college".

Clearly, your teachers considered the teaching of secular studies to be
beneath you.  They probably feel the same way about those who repair the
school building's electrical wiring.

Frank Silbermann, New Orleans, Louisiana,  <fs@...>


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:17:32 EST
Subject: Re: Mishebayrachs from Women

<<  From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
 This may be more a question of logistics and decorum than halacha -- I
 was wondering how various shules deal with providing a means for women
 to provide names for the "public" mishebayrach for Cholim.  I've seen
 everything from women going to a spot (say an end of the mechitzah),
 where a gabbai relayed their names to whoever is making the
 mishibayrach, to various whispering or yelling of names over the
 mechitzah (usually a function of distance)>>

My son the Gabbai informs me that properly the women should ask her
husband or if not married some other man before davening -- This
presumes that (a) people think about this before davening and (b)
they're in shule before davening --- I guess the tuition isn't totally
wasted, however.

Carl Singer


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:29:31 +0200
Subject: Pidyon Shvuyim

Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...> wrote:

>I have often heard that the Pollard case is one of Pidyun Shuvuyim.

Btw, over 50 G'dolim have signed a petition declaring him worthy of
Pidyon Shvuyim

>While I think that proposition is ridiculous, I have heard stories of
>Rabbis telling their Baal Habatim to perjure themselves in court in
>order to keep Jewish criminals out of jail for extended periods of time!

Maybe some of the British list members will back me up, but in the 1970s
there was one synagogue in North West London in which it was rumored
that in order for one to become a Gabbai and sit in the special box area
behind the Bima (the British custom), one had to have "sat" somewhere
else.  Yisrael


From: Gilad J. Gevaryahu <Gevaryahu@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:24:05 EST
Subject: Torah LeMoshe MiSinai

Zev Sero  (v30#93) says:
<<It was a well-known tradition in Prague that one of the sifrei torah in
the Altneu Shul (which itself supposedly dates back to before the 2nd
churban) was written by Ezra Hasofer.  I don't know whether this sefer
torah still exists; it would be interesting to subject it to scientific
testing to verify or refute this tradition.>>

The Altneuschul (literally "the old new synagogue" or al tenai, "on
condition") was built at the end of the 14th century. (Encyclopaedia
Judaica, Vol. 15, p. 603)

You are off the mark more than a millennia!

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Sheldon Meth <SHELDON.Z.METH@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:22:36 -0500
Subject: Welcoming Guests

Rabbi Mitchell Ackerson mentions Silver Spring as one of the "not
'military' towns."  I find that amusing since it is around the corner
from the Army Research Laboratory and, until the rounds of base
closings, the Naval Surface Warfare Center.  It is also about 15 miles
from that decidedly military edifice, The Pentagon, as well as other
assorted military facilities which may or may not be mentioned.  A
number of military officers are members of our Shul (Southeast Hebrew
Congregation - Knesset Yehoshua), who come in uniform when the "regs"
require it; they, and any guest so attired, will receive kibbudim
regardless, equally with us "civilians".

-Sheldon Meth


From: Ralph Zwier <zwierr@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:09:11 +1100
Subject: Yayin

Does anyone know at what era the wine of a non-Jew stopped being
automatically considered to be Yayin Nesach, and was considered to be
Stam Yeynam ? And as a supplementary question, do we know whether there
was controversy over the issue ?

Ralph Zwier                        Voice    61 3 9521 2188
Double Z Computer                    Fax    61 3 9521 3945


End of Volume 30 Issue 97