Volume 31 Number 08
                 Produced: Fri Jan 21  5:16:49 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Baruch Dayan Emet: Rav Yehuda Gershuni Zatsa"l
         [Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer]
Learning/Working all day
         [Russell Hendel]
MLK Day and Yeshivot
         [Deborah Wenger]
Philanthropy and Fraud
         [Carl M. Sherer]
Rambam and Collect call game (3)
         [Matthew Pearlman, Bill Bernstein, Robert Israel]
Source of Phrase
         [Carl and Adina Sherer]
State of Israel Bonds (2)
         [Jeanette Friedman, <rphunter@...>]
Time Zones, Stocks, and Shabbos


From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:17:15 +0200
Subject: Baruch Dayan Emet: Rav Yehuda Gershuni Zatsa"l

On Monday, Rav Yehuda Gershuni Zatsa"l, one of the Jewish world's
illuyim, prolific authors, and the last living Talmid of Rav Kook Zatsal
passed away. Hespedim were said by Rav Zalman Druk, Rav Chaim Drukman,
Rav Yaakov Ariel, Rav She'ar Yashuv haKohen, and Rav Avraham Shapiro. He
was buried in Har HaZeitim.
	Among his sefarim were: The Shittah Mekubetst on Pesakhim,
Mishpat haMelukha, Hukat HaPasach, Kol Tsofayikh, Hokhmat Gershon,
Sha'arei Tsedek
	Yehi Zikhro Barukh.


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:19:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Learning/Working all day

Some quick answers to Josh Hoexter, Gershon and "several others"
(v30n84) who asked some specific questions on my thesis that the goal
(particularly) in messianic times is to combine both Torah and work.

QUESTION: What is your source (or Rav Hirsch's source) that in the
Messianic era we will combine Torah and work.

ANSWER: Rav Hirsch cites verses like (Jer 3:16) "And in those days they
will no longer mention the ark of God (Because everthing will be holy)"
or Zech 14:20:21 "And all pots in Jerusalem and Judah will be HOLY to

In other words the holy and profane will blend together. I suggested
that one way of implementing this is thru Talmud Torah in all spheres of
life at all times. Rav HIrsch just speaks about Kedusha permeating all
of life.

QUESTION: What king of surgeon can think of Schitah? A hardware man will
lose customers if he learns UTENSILS and concentrating on irrelevant
Torah" The Moderator advises us that several people want to avoid this
surgeon who thinks about Shchitah during surgery.

You miss my point the laws of UTENSILS and the needs of the hardware man
are one and the same. The anatomy of the body under surgery and the
anatomy of the animal are the same.  As a simple example while selling
cooking pots the hardware salesperson may remember the laws about
"handles" and market accordingly (eg "Oh these two pots HOLD the same
(HOLDING is a halachic concept) but the handles here are softer and this
pot is not that much more expensive). If you look thru Utensils you will
see it is really possible for an ordinary hardware man to think about
the Mishnayoth all day. Similarly a person who is operating on a person
may see certain diseased organs and SIMULTANEOUSLY (that is my point)
remember both his med books and Schitah pictures (My point is that it is
not something extra).

Russell Hendel;Math Towson Univ;
Moderator Rashi Is Simple


From: Deborah Wenger <dwenger@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 09:21:26 -0500
Subject: MLK Day and Yeshivot

Chaim Shapiro wrote:

>I was surprised to learn that many have full days including secular
>programs on MLK Day.
>Aside from the awful public relations mess that would occur should this
>double standard become public, is there not a more insidious problem?  I
>have long been of the opinion that children understand hidden messages a
>little better than we assume.  A child that sees that his school gives
>off certain American Holidays, such as President's day, but not MLK day
>gets the message all too well.

I don't really see that much of a problem here. At present, many
businesses are still open on MLK day; it seems to be considered a
"minor" holiday, such as Lincoln's birthday, Columbus Day, Veterans Day,
etc.  Most "modern Orthodox" day schools that are off for the "major"
holidays such as Labor Day and Thanksgiving are open on the "minor"
ones, and I think that MLK Day can still be considered one of those. In
most day schools with which I have been involved in one way or another,
secular-studies teachers do have a unit about an upcoming holiday, such
as teaching about Columbus in October or Martin Luther King Jr. in
January. So I don't think MLK is getting short shrift here at all.

What I think is a much more insidious problem (if anyone wants to
discuss it) is schools that are closed Dec. 25 because it's a "legal
holiday", with the same status as, say, President's Day. The schools
generally say they're doing it for the "convenience" of parents who are
off from work that day, but what kind of a message is THAT sending to
our kids? (A better solution is one that I've seen in some yeshivot,
where there are regular classes on Dec. 25 but parents are invited to
come learn with their kids!)


From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:20:25 +0200
Subject: Philanthropy and Fraud

Zev Sero writes:

> To me, `tainted money' means that the money belongs to someone other
> than the donor.  On the one hand, accepting such a donation is the same
> as buying a hot watch on the street.  OTOH, if the true owner of the
> money cannot be traced, accepting the donation could be considered
> `kematzil miyadam', i.e. `rescuing' the money from being used by the
> thief.  At least it's being used for a good cause.

I would go a step further. There are certain types of donations that we
should not accept because their sources (at least should) disgust
us. For example, in the Beis HaMikdash it was forbidden to bring
korbanos (sacrifices) that were purchased with esnan zona (a
prostitute's fee) or mechir kelev (the proceeds of selling a dog). I
think the Torah was indicating to us that there are certain types of
money that we should not take even if it was obtained "legitimately." I
would place in that category money that was earned from selling drugs,
administering nursing homes that mistreat their residents, and other
moneys that are received for services rendered that either ought not to
have been rendered or that should have been rendered in a fairer
fashion, whether or not taking that money constitutes outright stealing.

Carl M. Sherer
mailto:<cmsherer@...>  or  mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, Baruch Yosef ben
Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  Thank you very much.


From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:42:43 -0000
Subject: Rambam and Collect call game

Russell Hendel wrote in Volume 31 Number 05

< INDEED, the phone company knows beforehand that some people will use
this subterfuge because the phone company keeps records on rejected
collect phone calls. The phone company willfully chose not to charge for
the REQUEST for a collect call but to charge MORE for the actual collect
call. So the phone company has decided to allow this--it is a business
decision on their part and they still make money.  >

I do not think this is a valid argument.  

Suppose I run a shop.  I know that I will lose certain items to theft,
whatever security measures I use, and so make allowance for this in
pricing.  ie I charge more for my product to cover this cost.

Does this mean that a thief can come into my shop and steal something
because he knows I am allowing for this elsewhere and am still making

To give an aggadic example, there is a question why the Egyptians were
punished for enslaving the Jewish nation and treating us cruelly, when
this was foreseen in a divine revelation to Abraham centuries earlier.
One answer given is that although as a nation, the Egyptians would
persecute, there was no excuse for any *individual* to treat another
human being cruelly.

From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:49:50 -0600
Subject: Rambam and Collect call game

Russell Hendel's incredible assertion that the "collect call game" is
permissable cannot go unchallenged.  Simply because phone companies
anticipate this does not make it permissable.  The same could be said of
stores: stores know that some of their merchandise will "disappear" from
shoppers and employees (called "shrinkage" in the business) and count
that in their projections.  Does that make it okay to steal merchandise
from stores? Of course not.  Halakha seems to permit any business
practice where buyers and sellers have (or could reasonably have) clear
knowledge of the product itself and the market.  This is not the case in
the phone game, where the phone company has no knowledge of the caller's
intent.  The intent, of course, is to get something for nothing.  And,
imho, the whole phenomenon is a chillul Hashem.

From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:05:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Rambam and Collect call game

     I don't claim to know much about halacha, but I think I can tell
the difference between a good business practice and a fraud.

You tell the operator you wish to make a call to Mr. X.  You do not in
fact intend to talk to Mr. X.  In some versions of the "game" there is
no Mr. X.  This is not comparable to polishing the fruit you are
selling.  It is more like selling a lemon to someone who expects an

The store owners know there will be a certain amount of shoplifting, and
choose not to have guards on every aisle.  This doesn't make shoplifting

Robert Israel                                <israel@...>
Department of Mathematics        http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel 
University of British Columbia            
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2


From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:31:09 +0200
Subject: Source of Phrase

Bernard Katz writes:

> > I assume that the custom according to which the congregation rises
> and exclaims, "Chazak chazak v'nitchazeik" at the end of the reading
> of each of the books of the Chumash is universal among both
> Sephardim and Ashkenazim. Does anyone know the source of the phrase
> and of the custom? Do we know, eg, when it was started? 

While the Chazak chazak part does appear to be universal, I'm not sure
that the standing part is universal.

I remember hearing b'shem Rav Soloveitchik (who may have been quoting a
Rambam) that one should not stand for specific psukim in the Torah so as
not to give the impression that any pasuk is more important than another
pasuk. He suggested that if the congregation stands for (for example)
Chazak, Shiras HaYam, Aseres haDibros, etc., and that one would be
poresh min hatzibur (separating himself from the Congregation) by not
standing, then one should stand for the entire aliya rather than for the
specific psukim.

I checked through my Nefesh HaRav very quickly last night and did not
find this listed among the Rav's customs, so I may be mistaken. Maybe
someone else can confirm it.

-- Carl M. Sherer
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, Baruch Yosef
ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  Thank you very much.


From: Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:19:45 EST
Subject: Re: State of Israel Bonds

> Should we in the Orthodox community campaign to change the marketing
> campaign back towards an Israel focus and away from the personal
> financial focus?

I guess you (each kehilla) can design the campaign anyway you want. Make
an Israel Bond Appeal in your own way.  I am assuming that the pitch is
no longer aimed exclusively at Jews. It is my guess that Israel Bonds
are on the international bond market, and that it never even occurred to
them to think otherwise.

However you pitch it, people in the know know that Israel Bonds, hardly
holy in any case, are a link to Israel.

Jeanette Friedman

From: <rphunter@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:21:31 -0500
Subject: Re: State of Israel Bonds

>From: Gershon Klavan <klavan@...>
> The entire reason for a public appeal is to provoke an emotional
> response which manifests itself with a pledge.  The campaigns in the
> past focused on such a response by focusing on the emotional aspect:
> your investment will help Israel grow.  Today, however, the campaign
> minimizes this emotional aspect and focuses on the hard core financial
> data.  Thus I am forced to speculate whether this change is due to an
> overall decline in the Jewish emotional commitment towards the State of
> Israel or simply a response to the financial environment.

Having a variable rate bond makes sense in today's environment due to
the fact that , by making it competitive , the government of Israel will
attract both emotional investors and those who are financially alert, to
invest in the economic future of the country.  With billions in foreign
aid being received by Israel every year the need for bond type funding ,
though vital, is greatly defrayed by other economic exchanges.If the
actual interest rate , which is compounded on a regular basis [quarterly
etc] does not fall on a prohibited day then it should not be a cause for


From: Chaim <chaim@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:27:09 -0500
Subject: Time Zones, Stocks, and Shabbos

(For those of you unfamiliar with Wall Street terminology, here's some
definitions so you'll understand my question.  A "stop-loss" order to
sell means that I issue an order that if my stock ever drops to a
specific price, a market order is immediately put out to sell my
stock. For example, if I own xyz which is now trading at $40 a share, I
can put out a stop-loss order to sell xyz at $35 a share. That way if
xyz starts dropping, mine is sold at $35, and my loss will have been
limited to $5 a share. If xyz goes up or stays the same, my stop-loss
order won't be executed. Also, "Good 'till Cancelled" means that my
order will stay in effect for several months until I cancel it, as
opposed to a day order which is automatically cancelled at the end of
the trading day.)

On to my question:
 I'm living in Israel and trade USA stocks using a brokerage account in
the USA. I've started opening stop-loss orders to sell which are Good
'till Cancelled. My question is, do I have to cancel all my orders every
Friday before Shabbos ? If I don't cancel my stop-loss orders,
theoretically my stocks could be sold at a time which is already Shabbos
for me (as Friday night here in Israel is still the middle of the
trading day on Wall Street).  So is this called doing business on
Shabbos, or do we say that since at the place of sale (i.e. New York)
it's not Shabbos, then it's okay ?

I've heard the reverse to be okay - for example, sending a fax with
personal news from Israel to the USA on Saturday night in Israel
(assuming the receiving person can read the fax without touching
it). But in that case it's not Shabbos for the sender, so maybe that's



End of Volume 31 Issue 8