Volume 31 Number 10
                 Produced: Fri Jan 21  6:18:51 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Contradictory References to same Posek
         [Carl Singer]
Eating in a Supermarket
         [Alexander Heppenheimer]
Fasting for a bad Dream (4)
         [Sheldon Meth, Jeff Fischer, Gershon Dubin, Yeshaya Halevi]
Lakewood "freeze" and kollel
         [Stuart Wise]
Ma'aser Kesofim
         [Carl M. Sherer]
Playing ball on Shabbos
         [Jeremy J Goldsmith]
         [Harry Weiss]
Wet food
         [Josh Hoexter]
Wet Vegetables
         [Anthony S Fiorino]


From: Carl Singer <csinger@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:30:13 -0500
Subject: Contradictory References to same Posek 

The Rabbi of one shule to which I belong gave a Shabbos drosh that
according to Reb Moishe Feinstein ztl, although the we owe an hakores
hatov to America, there should be no flags anywhere inside the building
-- but the outdoor flag (on the flagpole) could continue to fly.  (I
won't even bring up the Israeli flag.)  OK -- the Rav of the shule has
paskened and I hold that's the way it should be (jurisdiction.)

I then asked the Rav of the other shule to which I belong the same
question, to determine what this shule's policy is -- and he informed me
that Reb Moishe Feinstein ztl, paskened that the flag was permitted, but
should not be anywhere near the Aron Kodesh.  OK -- the Rav of the shule
has paskened and I hold that's the way it should be (jurisdiction.)

But what, if anything, did Reb Moishe Feinstein ztl, paskin on this
subject.  Time and again, I hear conflicting stories of what Rav Moishe
and other Gedolim did or did not paskin.

Be it Chalov Yisroel, Eruv, Flags it seems that we have no clear process
for clearly determining what was said.  And this is within the last few
decades.  100 years from now if Messiach doesn't come, with such ease of
publishing, and freedom to publish, we will possibly have a great
balagan of conflict citations all from the same source -- Reb Moishe,
Reb Yaakov, the Chofetz Chaim, etc.

I don't want to accuse anyone of only citing sources (or versions of
sources) that agree with their viewpoint, but one might get suspicious
when one reads so many one-sided discussions.

Any comments?

Carl Singer
<csinger@...>                         70 Howard Avenue
(973) 777-2980    t/l 267-9725             Passaic, NJ  07055-5328
Page (800)366- 2917     text msgs  <3662917@...>


From: Alexander Heppenheimer <Alexander.Heppenheimer@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:00:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Eating in a Supermarket

In MJ 31:4, Janet Rosenbaum asked about something Josh Backon wrote:
>> I suggest that simply picking up the item in the supermarket is *not* a
>> kinyan. Only paying for the item at the supermarket checkout counter
>> would be the acceptable kinyan "situmta" since only this method is the
>> law of the land and binding.
>If someone takes something out of another person's cart and buys it,
>have they done anything wrong?

Possibly, though not because the other person has actually performed an
act of kinyan to acquire it.

The Gemara (Kiddushin 59a) discusses the case of "ani hamehapech
bachararah" (a poor person who is trying to get a loaf of bread - but
has not yet actually made a kinyan), where someone else comes in and
takes that very same loaf; the Gemara calls the second person a "rasha"
- a wicked person - for doing so.

If I recall correctly, the case there is where there's no other loaf of
bread as easily/cheaply available (hence the reference to a poor
person). So if that item was the last of its kind on the shelf,
presumably this halachah would apply. On the other hand, if the first
person could just as easily go back to the shelf and get another one,
then this might not be the case - although even there, it might still be
wrong insofar as the "taker" has caused the "takee" unnecessary bother.

Kol tuv y'all,


From: Sheldon Meth <SHELDON.Z.METH@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:38:09 -0500
Subject: Fasting for a bad Dream

In v31n07, Jeannet Friedman asks: "If you have a nightmare you fast on
Shabbos? I thought I knew alot, but this is a new one on me. Can someone
please explain?"

Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayyim 288:4 [Laws of Fasting and the Law of
Fasting on a Dream on Shabbos]. "It is permissible to fast a Ta'anis
Chalom [fast on a bad dream] [on Shabbos] so that his decree is torn,
but he must fast on Sunday in order to atone for his nullification of
Oneg Shabbos.  If he is weak and cannot fast two days in a row, he
should not fast on Sunday, rather afterwards."

[Source above also submitted by Dov Teichman <DTnLA@...>. Mod.]

-Sheldon Meth

From: Jeff Fischer <ENJGabbai@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:24:03 EST
Subject: Re: Fasting for a bad Dream

If it is a dream that REALLY disturbs you, you would fast, I believe, so
you can ask Hashem that it does not happen or it might be because you
might have sinned and you want forgiveness.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:15:57 -0500
Subject: Fasting for a bad Dream

	If a person is so disturbed by the nightmare that he cannot eat,
then fasting is considered his "enjoyment" of Shabbos and he may
(should) fast.  He then has to fast on a weekday to atone for having
fasted on Shabbos.


From: Yeshaya Halevi <CHIHAL@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:03:10 EST
Subject: Re: Fasting for a bad Dream

Shalom, All:
      When I was privileged to have Reb Aharon Soloveichik as my Rosh
Yeshiva ("head of the seminary"), I had a very vivid dream which
literally terrified me.  The next morning I asked Reb Aharon if I should
      He told me in no uncertain words that there was no need for me to
fast over a dream.  Period.
      As I sit here typing, I wonder: if I were a sage, or a Tzadeek
("very righteous, even saint-like person") or anyone on a higher plane
than a 19-year-old batlan ("time-wasting person"), would he have said
the same thing?
      But idle speculation aside, I must repeat: he told me in no
uncertain words that there was no need for me to fast over a dream.
     Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>)


From: Stuart Wise <swise@...>
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:00:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Lakewood "freeze" and kollel

It was heartwarming to read Rivkah Tuttle's odyssey.  It always seemed
"romantic" for a couple to struggle while the husband learns in kollel,
but it is a wise person who realizes whether it is feasible.  At some
point in = a couple's life, someone has to pay the bills other than
Mommy and Daddy.

Like the Bais Yaakov indoctrination, it appears that yeshivos also push
the idea of kollel without considering future implications=8B such as,
eventually how to support your family when you leave kollel and not
trained in any skill. (Note: learning in kollel doesn't automatically
qualify someone to b= e a teacher, though there are a number of former
kollelniks who do become rebbeim.)

The message yeshivos should send out is that for most people there is
life after kollel and those sitting and learning should have a plan
before makin= g their decisions that affect not only themselves, but
their parents and thei= r future children.


And deciding to make living to support one's family doesn't make a person
greedy for money.

Why don't our children hear that message?


From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:39:53 +0200
Subject: Ma'aser Kesofim

Oren Popper writes:

> > 4 - What of retirement funds - my IRA account has seen a capital gain or
> > a dividend, which is reinvested (that is no money comes to me at
> > present)
> Thanks for raising this issue, I haven't even thought about it. My
> inclination is to treat this as non-cash assets since they will not be
> accessible until retirement, at which point I would say ma'aser is due on
> the entire amount less the keren (principle). This is not so simple if the
> funds (at retirement) are in anything but a cash-equivalent account, since
> theoretically they might depreciate, which would be (according to most
> opinions) ma'aser deductible. You might solve this by viewing the
> pre-retirement years as a seperate eisek (venture), tithing once retirement
> age was reached (or once the funds were otherwise withdrawn). All
> post-retirement gains (and losses) would be viewed as a seperate eisek
> (venture).

Why not just ma'aser each individual withdrawal as you withdraw it? That
would put you on a "cash basis" which strikes me as being the fairest
way and the easiest way to measure what you should be giving.

-- Carl M. Sherer
mailto:<cmsherer@...> or mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, Baruch Yosef ben
Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  Thank you very much.


From: Jeremy J Goldsmith <yehuda613@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:55:37 -0500
Subject: Playing ball on Shabbos

What are the halachic guidelines regarding playing ball on Shabbos? Over
bar mitzva, under bar mitzva, on grass, on concrete, etc... Thank you in



From: Harry Weiss <harry.weiss@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 21:11:26 -0700
Subject: Smorgies

Carl Sherer wrote the following

"What about the issue of hefsek in places (like New York) where the
shmorg is traditionally before the chupa? Unlike your shul banquet, not
only are you stopping your meal, you are also getting up and leaving the
place where you started eating and not immediately going to eat
elsewhere. To me that at least may be a hefsek that requires you to
bentch and then wash a second time after the chupa.

If you hold that this is not a hefsek, then what do you do when Erev
Pesach comes out on Shabbos and in order to get in a third meal with
motzi before zman achilas chometz (the time after which it is forbidden
to eat chametz on Erev Pesach - generally between 9:00 and 10:00 A.M. in
most cities), some people eat a meal, bentch, walk around the block and
wash and eat another meal. Do you hold that is not a hefsek and
therefore the bentching (and by extension the subsequent washing and
haMotzi) is a bracha l'vatola (an unnecessary blessing)? Unless you
daven at netz (sunrise) you are unlikely to have more than half an hour
between meals - probably about the time most chupas take."

I think the issue is one of intent.  AFAIK it is okay on Shabbos to wash
and make Hamotzei at kiddush at shul and finish the meal and bentch at
home.  Thus at a wedding one has in mind to include the full meal both
before and after the Chupa.  On erev Pesach one has specific intent not
to include the second meal and to end the meal prior to the short walk.



From: Josh Hoexter <hoexter@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:24:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Wet food

> From: Zev Sero <Zev@...>
> Anthony S Fiorino <fiorino_anthony@...> wrote:
> >certainly, our custom today is not to wash on wet vegetables any other
> >time of the year.
> I'm not familiar with this `our custom' to which Eitan refers;
> which communities have this custom of eating wet food (which is
> usually eaten with the hands) without washing?

I was told at one point to eat pickles, olives, herring, etc with a fork
because to eat them with your hands would require washing (without a
blessing). Shulchan Aruch HaRav O"Ch 158:3 however says that wet foods
require washing the hands even if eating with a spoon unless it is a
food that is always eaten with a spoon, so it does not seem that using a
fork necessarily solves the problem.

But he does conclude "and in our lands most people are not accustomed to
wash their hands for anything that was dipped in liquid. And there is
room to find merit for them by saying that they rely on the opinion of a
few of the rishonim [early authorities] that say that the sages did not
require washing the hands for food dipped in liquid except in their days
when they ate in purity, which is not the case now that we are all
impure. And one should not protest against them since they have upon
whom to rely. However the law is really like the first opinion [that one
must wash]."

Josh Hoexter


From: Anthony S Fiorino <fiorino_anthony@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:08:13 -0500
Subject: Wet Vegetables

>>certainly, our custom today is not to wash on wet vegetables any other
>>time of the year.
>I'm not familiar with this `our custom' to which Eitan refers;
>which communities have this custom of eating wet food (which is
>usually eaten with the hands) without washing?
>[I'll have to admit that all the places I've been in appear to be in
>Eitan's communities, as I've never seen the custom to wash similar to
>the washing for bread on wet vegetables. I'd be really interested to
>hear of communities or groups that do so. Mod.]

The issue is discussed in the Mishna Brura in hilchot netilat yadayim
and in hilchot pesach.  I had recalled a negative view in the MB over
washing before wet peirot, but in looking back over the material, I saw
that the Shulchan Aruch's negative comments (gasei ruach) for those
washing over fruit may be for people washing before eating dry fruit,
not wet fruit.  There is a comment of the shar hatzion in hilcot pesach
stating that those who are not accustomed to washing during the year on
wet vegetables should do so at the seder, lending some support to my
contention that this is not a widespread practice today.  Another reason
may be related to the amount of vegetables that creates the obligation
to wash - though now I can't remember if it is a kazayit or kabeitzah;
for bread one must wash on a kazayit and say "al netilat yadayim" on a
kabeitzah.  In any case, though I believe not washing on wet vegetables
is quite widespread, on the surface (i.e., the MB) there does not appear
to be justification for not doing it on the appropriate quantitiy of wet

-Eitan Fiorino


End of Volume 31 Issue 10