Volume 31 Number 13
                 Produced: Sun Jan 23  8:44:26 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

10 Tevet trumps Shabbos
         [I. Harvey Poch]
Adnei Hasadeh
         [Warren Burstein]
Atmosphere of Secular Colleges
         [Stuart Wise]
Davening at different shuls
         [David I. Cohen]
Fasting for a bad Dream (2)
         [Joel Rich, Jeanette Friedman]
Let's talk parnuseh
         [Carl Singer]
MLK Day and Yeshivot (2)
         [Chaim Shapiro, Dovid Serkin]
The Nature of Chesed
         [Moshe and davida Nugiel]
         [Carl Singer]
Saying 'I like ham but God forbade me'
A sentence, a smell and now the internet
         [Jeanette Friedman]
Yeshivas closing on Secular Holidays
         [Rose Landowne]


From: I. Harvey Poch <af945@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:57:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 10 Tevet trumps Shabbos

Actually, the next time Asarah b'Tevet falls on Friday is January 5,
2001.  When this happens in a non-leap year, Purim also falls on Friday
and Pesach on Sunday. These are all fairly infrequent, sometimes
occurring only after twenty years or more (e.g. 1954 to 1974). However,
the Friday Purim and Sunday Pesach occur in 2001, 2005 (that's aleap
year, so 10 Tevet does NOT fall on Friday), 2008 (ditto), and not again
until 2021.  This is similar to the last pattern of 1974, 1977, 1981,

[Pointed out also by: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>. Mod.]

My son pointed out to me that Shmos (Exodus) 12:17 uses the phrase
"be'etzem hayom hazeh" to refer to Pesach and, indeed, if Erev Pesach
falls on Shabbos, as in the years listed above, the Korban Pesach
(so-called Paschal Lamb) would be slaughtered on Shabbos, even though
extra, non-scheduled sacrifices are not offered on Shabbos.

I. Harvey Poch  (8-)>


From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:36:38
Subject: Re: Adnei Hasadeh

Dov Teichman cites sources that place the Adnei Hasadeh in Egypt during
the plagues.  Are we to understand from this that

1) Neanderthals were not yet extinct (and were attached to the ground)?
2) Extinct creatures were ressurected to participate in the plague?
3) This creature is not the Neanderthal?

[how about a slight modification to 3) The Adnei Hasadeh is of the
opinion that this creature is not the Neanderthal?  Mod.]


From: Stuart Wise <swise@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:45:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Atmosphere of Secular Colleges

> While it is true that the moral atmosphere (or lack of morality) on
> the modern American college campus is antithetical to Halachik standards,
> and that an observant Jew will face problems he would not otherwise
> encounter, we should also recognize that thousnads of young comitted
> Orthodox youth have flourished in just such an atmosphere, by creating
> vibrant halachic enclaves in just such a hostile environment.
>     I daresay that the battle to maintain standards can result in a
> strengthening of belief and observance.
> [Snip]
>     As far as being exposed to heretical teachings and ideas, it is
> naive to think that thoughtful young adults will always be sheltered
> from alien ideas.  Hopefully, a good Jewish high school education
> togther with a thoughtful year in Yeshiva or Midreshat in Israel can
> give students the tools to deal with these ideas. ZHiding from them
> won't make them go away.

 This thread reminds me of one explanation why on Friday night we bless
our children that they should be like "Ephraim and Menashe," the two
sons of Joseph.  Those two were the only of the 12 tribes who were born
in raised in the unclean atmosphere in Egypt, yet they thrived and were
as dear to Hashem as the ones who were born in Canaan.  The blessing
asks Hashem that we should merit that our children, who likewise for the
most part are raised in a less than holy general environment, should
turn out like Ephraim and Menashe.

It is possible.

It seems parents have little faith in their children or confidence in
the way they raised them to feel they cannot trust their almost-adult
children in any atmosphere. I recall dating a woman long before meeting
my wife whose parents didn't want her, at age 26, to work for anyone but
a religious boss.  She dutifully obeyed and found a job where her
Orthodox boss would not let her out on Friday any earlier than the
amount of time it would take her to get home (they both lived in the
same community), while he left early.  I also know of at least one
instance of a person working in an all-Orthodox environment and she had
to fend off the unwanted advances of an Orthodox co-worker.

If you cannot trust your child in the atmosphere of college, how can
they learn to survive in the real world.  Yes, some people who attend
secular college with all the garbage that goes on, do get affected, but
it is possible that they WANT to be affected and already harbor ideas
that make it easier for them to become affected.


From: David I. Cohen <BDCOHEN613@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:47:47 EST
Subject: Davening at different shuls

    <<Definitely the case in Flatbush ir hakodesh.  I myself daven in
about six different shuls each week (not counting mincha in the office).
Which is "your shul" or "your rabbi"?  Possibly one of those, possibly
none of the above.>>

    I think that this would only be comendable if you actually were a
member or at least helped to support all six places that you daven. I
find that too often we have a tendency to tink that it's enough for me
to daven some where.  Others will take care of assuring that the shuls
are there for me when I need them, and I don't have to be concerned with
the physical or financial upkeep of the shul.

       I strongly believe that if you are in a community, you should
find a shul that meets your needs, BECOME A MEMBER and support it.

    David I. Cohen


From: Joel Rich <Joelirich@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:06:16 EST
Subject: Re: Fasting for a bad Dream

<<    As I sit here typing, I wonder: if I were a sage, or a Tzadeek
 ("very righteous, even saint-like person") or anyone on a higher plane
 than a 19-year-old batlan ("time-wasting person"), would he have said
 the same thing?
       But idle speculation aside, I must repeat: he told me in no
 uncertain words that there was no need for me to fast over a dream.
      Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>) >>

My understanding is you only fast (or concentrate on the midparagraphs
in birchat cohanim on shalosh regalim) IF you can't let go of the dream.
Remember that the gemora says that there are no (or very,very few) dreams
without foolishness in them

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

From: Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:45:47 EST
Subject: Re: Fasting for a bad Dream

<< If it is a dream that REALLY disturbs you, you would fast, I believe, so
 you can ask Hashem that it does not happen or it might be because you
 might have sinned and you want forgivene >>

I have noticed that in Birchas Cohanim there is all that stuff about
dreams, as well. Is there such an emphasis on dreams because of Yosef?
Or aren't dreams sort of the way Freud described them--messages to

What is it about nightmares?  And what about happy dreams? Any action
need to be taken on those? And what about dreams you can't remember?

Jeanette Friedman


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:31:02 EST
Subject: Re: Let's talk parnuseh

Let's talk parnuseh

I was reminded by a Lubovitch friend of mine that, in his opinion, all
of the Baleyeh Tshuvah in our town were being sold a bill of goods that,
although the majority of them (men & women) had college degrees and
professions, that there was no need for them to educate the children in
similar manner.  I usually discard most statements with "all" in them,
but this and the discussions of kollel, etc., make we wonder if the
we're raising a generation which will need to be subsidized in order to
live what we might today call a "comfortable" life style. -- And who
will do the subidizing.

I once wrote very strongly that Orthodox Jews (despite the depiction in
the Philadelphia Jewish Exponent) were no longer pushcart peddlers but
included many trained professionals.  Will future generations prove me

Carl A. Singer  


From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:18:31 EST
Subject: MLK Day and Yeshivot

Deborah writes
 << here. At present, many businesses are still open on MLK day; it
seems to be considered a "minor" holiday, such as Lincoln's birthday,
Columbus Day, Veterans Day, etc.  >>

That is the problem!  Many of those schools I checked are closed for 
Presidents' Day!  Chaim Shapiro

From: Dovid Serkin <RabbiS@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:43:38 EST
Subject: MLK Day and Yeshivot

Chaim Shapiro's observation (January 17, 2000) regarding Day Schools and
Yeshivot having a full day or only Judaic Studies on Martin Luther King
Day and the subtle message that it might be transmitting to students may
be valid if a school does nothing to mark the meaning of the day. On the
other hand, in institutions where I have been, I specifically scheduled
a full day of school and held meaningful programs, in General and Judaic
Studies, to make special note of themes echoed by Dr. King. In addition
to student presentations and/or readings and viewing videos relating to
civil rights, our programs included student participation programs on
nonviolence. By focusing on the meaning of the day (and not necessarily
relating it to Jewish discrimination), I feel that students understood
much more of a positive nature then the possible negative subtle

Dovid Serkin


From: Moshe and davida Nugiel <friars@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:43:55 +0200
Subject: The Nature of Chesed

What exactly is chesed?
 I had always thought that if one does more than the Torah requires, vis
a vis ben adam l'chavero [Mitzvot that are between person and person -
Mod.], then that is chesed.  Kind of a chumra to be extra nice to other
people.  However, it has been argued that doing acts of chesed is a
Torah obligation.  A strong support for this view is the mishnah which
we say each morning, "These are the things which have no set
amount...acts of chesed..."  The implication is that there is an
obligation, but no set amount.
 If this latter view is correct, then what should we call what I
[mistakenly?] call chesed?

Moshe Nugiel


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:00:27 EST
Subject: Re: Poskim

<<  From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
 Carl Singer writes: <>
 <<In fact, most of the shuls in my neighborhood do not have "shul
 Rabbis" in the sense that Americans (at least) think of them.>>  >>

Was this perhaps from my friend Carl Sherer?

[Yes. Vol 31 num 01. Mod.]


From: Mordechai <Phyllostac@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:11:19 EST
Subject: Saying 'I like ham but God forbade me'

<<  From: Rena Freedenberg <free@...>
 Why is such a well - known teaching seemingly disregarded by
 many observant Jews?

 Because this teaching does NOT mean that you must stand outside of every
 McTreif and say the above sentence, it means that the preferred hashkafa
 is to feel that you would otherwise wish to eat lobster/ham/whatever,
 but that you only abstain because Hashem says so, not because it
 wouldn't taste good, smell good, you don't think it's healthy, etc. In
 other words, if we only do what WE in our finite thinking think is best,
 then we might, chas v'sholom, come to think that we know better than
 Hashem. If we say that "gee, that lobster smells wonderful" but we only
 do what Hashem orders us to, then we are saying that we follow Hashem's
 logic instead of our own.  >>

My problem with that explanation is that the teaching specifically seems
to say that a person should express this opinion vocally. It doesn't say
'al Yachshov adam ....aval yachshov' (a person shouldn't think this way,
rather the other way), rather 'Al yomar adam...aval yomar...' (a person
shouldn't say...but should say...). The wording seems to indicate that
this is something that should be said - not merely thought.

So why isn't it said more often? Another possibility I have thought of
is that maybe it is something to express if one is questioned about
their religion - but not necessarily something to bring up unprompted.



From: Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:24:11 EST
Subject: A sentence, a smell and now the internet

<< if people start talking like that, perhaps
 some might develop an actual desire to sample non - kosher food and
 might have a tough time controlling themselves....perhaps that's why
 it's not recorded as law.  >>

Is that all it takes for someone to fall off the path? A smell? A

I don't think so. I feel that rabbanim today don't trust themselves or
their kehilot and students and that that leads to lots of problems. For
example, assering the internet.

Everyone has tayva [desires/lusts - Mod.]. My tayva is food. I am on the
internet everyday and never went to a porn site that I can think of.  I
also never get into conversations with total strangers And I do not
consider myself frum. What I do, is I consider myself strong enough not
to do wrong things because I was taught critical thinking. A critically
thinking person will not utter a sentence and go running off to eat
treyf, nor will they they run off to the porn boards if they are on the
net, they could read the newspapers without becoming secular, you catch
my drift.

I thought the whole point of the Torah is for individuals to control
their own teyvah, not for others to control it for them.

Jeanette Friedman


From: Rose Landowne <ROSELANDOW@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:36:36 EST
Subject: Re: Yeshivas closing on Secular Holidays

<< Now re: what others will think of us, the black-Jewish relationship
is more complex than whether or not we observe MLK day.  This past issue
of the Cleveland Jewish News showed an old picture of a bloodied Rabbi
Lelyveld who was participating in the Selma marches.  People will judge
you on whatever criteria they wish.  Another thought -- what other
groups take of Jewish Holidays. >>

Do you not feel that as Americans, the secular legal holidays are ours ,
even though we also have our own Jewish holidays?  Should we identify
only as Jews and not as Americans?

Rose Landowne 


End of Volume 31 Issue 13