Volume 31 Number 22
                 Produced: Thu Jan 27 21:23:10 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Collect call game (3)
         [Jonathan Grodzinski, Warren Burstein, Russell Hendel]
College and Orthodox
         [Bill Bernstein]
High schools and a mother's broken heart (2)
         [Uri Schild, Daniel Stuhlman]
         [Andy Levy-Stevenson]
Jewish Special Ed
         [Aharon Fischman]
Orthodox College Students
         [Moshe Flohr]
Why not make aliya?
         [Freda B Birnbaum]


From: Jonathan Grodzinski <JGrodz@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:32:41 EST
Subject: Collect call game

About once a day I mislay my mobile phone. To locate it quickly I dial
the mobile's number from another phone, follow the ringing till I locate
the mobile, then disconnect the call without answering.

How do you guys feel about that?

and can anyone help me find my spectacles?

My father z"l used to promise 5/- (=0.25 Pound) to R Meir Baal Haness
who somehow helped him find mislaid articles. How does that work?

Jonathan Grodzinski (fourth generation Master Baker - London, UK)

From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:58:01
Subject: Re: Collect call game

A suggestion to educators - don't just tell your students "don't do X",
give them a lesson on why X is forbidden.  And if the class is on a high
enough level, think of a few possible arguments that X might be
permitted and refute them.

From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:09:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Collect call game

Matthew Pearlman (v31n8) Bill Bernstein and Robert Israel all responded
to my "incredible" claim that "collect calling a parent with intent that
the parent should reject the collect call and call you" is permissable
since the phone companies anticipate such practices (and hence make
collect calls more expensive); they point out that many store owners
anticipate shop lifting (which is clearly not permissable).

But I gave not one but two arguments. My MAIN argument was a citiation
of the Rambam, Sales 18:4 which I now explain according to the Rambams
commentary on Baba Metziah 60a:
	>The sages (vs Abba Saul) permit sifting pounded beans

	>(Rambam: He sifts them because their peels have a mark
	>which enables you to tell how well they cook;(if he left
	>the peel only the good ones would be bought--therefore
	>he intentionally sifts the beens to remove the peel 
	>so that all beans should look alike, thus increasing his sales)

	>(Gmarrah: R Aha explains that it is permitted to sift
	>the peels off the beans because IT MAY BE SEEN).

So the Gmarrah (according to the Rambam) explicitly allows the store
owner to maliciously destroy the peels THEREBY GETTING PEOPLE TO BUY
BEANS THEY NORMALLY WOULD NOT BUY!!! The reason this fraud is allowed is
because it is recognizable.

Hence we conclude that Halacha allows aggressive business tactics if the
fraud committed is transparent. Hence THEFT (which is not seen) is
CALL YOU BACK is permitted (because all is seen).

I embellished the above argument by pointing out that unlike theft where
the store does not benefit, here, the phone company does benefit True it
loses the labor of the operator requesting the collect call and being
told no by the parents, but then the phone company gets the revenue of
should also be permissable because the phone company profits...It is a
business decision.

I hope this clarifies my "incredible" position.

Russell Hendel; Phd ASA; Math; Towson Univ
Moderator Rashi is Simple; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/


From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:16:49 -0600
Subject: College and Orthodox

Tzsvi Klugerman makes some excellect points in his reason post, i.e.
that students who go "off the derekh" (way) in college are looking
towards that anyway and would leave as sson as they could given the
This reminds me of an incident that happned to me: I was flying into
Raleigh NC from NYC and on the plane was sitting next to an older man.
He got his kosher lunch, made a brocho and began eating.  As we talked
he mentioned he was from Poland and had been through the war.  I asked,
"I see you're religious.  Why is it so many people from religious homes
dropped it after the war but you've contiued on?"  He answered,
"whatever someone was when they went into the camps, that's how they
came out."  So maybe college is not really the problem after all.


From: Uri Schild <uri@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 100 11:14:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: High schools and a mother's broken heart

From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>
> Your ideal world exists. It is called the State of Israel.........
> This is something that has always puzzled me. I see parents, who are
> friends of ours, who have jobs that are nothing special,

at least they do have those jobs here...! (:-)

> ..... but they would not even
> consider coming on aliya. Can someone on that side of the
> ocean explain why? I am at a loss to explain it.

The answer is simple and twofold.

First, making a non-spectacular income here does not imply *anything*
wrt. parnasah in Israel. If anything - one not extremely successful in
business here is likely to fall lower over there. Finding a reasonable
job in Israel can be difficult. That, coupled with the fact that most of
the living expenses are higher there can explain reluctance to
move. From personal experience: one of the job interviews I had there
distinctly reminded me a "friendly" conversation I was compelled to have
with a KGB official years ago in Russia... [I survived both, but it left
me little pleasure.]  Those who choose to stay based on this issue
alone, do have a point.  [Even if you are a tzadik and don't care for
"earthly" parnasah at all (a-la RASHBI), your family probably does.]

Second, the life in Israel is richer in some aspects (which alone could
make the aliyah worthwhile) but it puts a noticeably higher pressure on
an individual especially if he didn't grow up in that environment. Not
all can take this pressure, or live in that social environment.

Note that we haven't even started discussing the Israeli schools
themselves - how good or otherwise they are. And we didn't touch the
Army service issue - some think that the way current ROE are drawn makes
it "unworthy" to risk getting KIA, some simply don't want their child to
serve in the Army regardless.

Some people who made aliyah, are exceedingly happy. One frind of mine, a
lawyer with (I suppose) decent income, moved to Israel with his family
and is very happy. He sold his house here and bought something
acceptable over there, he managed to keep his job here (telecommuting
and frequent business trips to the States), his children are all

Some olim [immigrants] told me stories of rather less happiness.

Uri		<uri@...>

From: Daniel Stuhlman <ssmlhtc@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:09:12
Subject: High schools and a mother's broken heart

Hyperactivity, ADD, ADHD are symptoms and not diseases.  Any parent of
child who is not behaving normally should have a through medical workup.
This does not mean going to your pediatrician for a quick 10 minute
exam.  This means testing to rule out any medical causes of behavior.

Hyperactivity may be caused by allergies, toxins, injury, congenital
heart problems, tumors, lack of sufficient oxygen supply to the brain
and many more.  Don't let an HMO doctor short change your child.  Get
another opinion.  It is much easier to cure a medical problem than to
treat a symptom.

Many of the behaviors associated with ADD are symptoms of giftedness.
Proper academic programs can help.

We had teachers and principals tell us that our son needed medication
even after two doctors and a psychologist said, "No way."  He is now is
a school that is better at dealing with students as individuals.  He
still has his problems, but he has people to help.

Daniel Stuhlman
Chicago, IL 60645


From: Andy Levy-Stevenson <teafortwo@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:03:16 -0600
Subject: Re: Homeschooling

Bill Bernstein asked:

> Does anyone have any direct experience with home schooling, and are
> there any resources for those home-schooling their children?  I would be
> interested to hear experiences and opinions in the matter.

We've considered this seriously, and have still not reached any final
conclusions. in all the reading we've done, it's clear that it can be a
wonderful choice for families, and many, many resources are available
both in print and online.

Here are two links that make a good starting point. The first addresses
Jewish aspects of homeschooling, while the second is huge, general, and
extremely thorough. Both will lead you to a large variety of resources.



Finally, there's an email list of observant Jewish homeschoolers, both in
Israel, the US, and elsewhere. It's a (very) small group, but quite helpful
when it's active.

> Jewish Homeschoolers - Torah-Centered Homeschooling Discussion (torch-d) is
> the on-line mailing list of ATorCH (Association for Torah-Centered
> Homeschooling). ATorCH is an organization providing information about and
> support for homeschooling with a religious Jewish perspective.
> - To subscribe, send a message to (<listproc@...>) with the
>       following command in the body of the message:
>  subscribe torch-d YOUR FULL NAME

For those of us without local schools that adequately meet our
children's educational needs and goals, homeschooling seems a very
attractive option.  Like any group of people, homeschoolers divide into
various factions, from those who do "school at home" to those who use
the opportunity to facilitate their children's self-directed education.

Some homeschoolers are ideologically driven, whether for religious,
political, or pedagogical reasons, and some have simply not found that
their children are served properly by local schools. Some have children
with special needs, handicaps, issues, gifts, personalities etc., some
have children with none of these challenges.

I'm looking forward to hearing more discussion about this; my
(extensive) reading on the subject has convinced me it's at least a very
viable option for observant families, and for many it may be the optimum

 Andy Levy-Stevenson                  Email:   <teafortwo@...>
 Tea for Two                          Voice:              612.920.4243
 A Design and Communications Company  Fax:                612.920.4436


From: Aharon Fischman <afischman@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:52:30 -0500
Subject: RE: Jewish Special Ed

Carl isn't wrong that making Aliyah would make logical sense for people
in the dire situation that this thread is talking about.  The same
reason that such parents don't follow that option is the same reason
many people, regardless of circumstance do not make Aliya; comfort with
their surroundings, or fear of the unknown.  I myself know that it is
meritous and commendable to make Aliya and my wife's two sisters have
both moved to Israel.  However, that doesn't make the fear, rational or
irrational go away.

A refuah shleyma to your son.

Aharon A. Fischman


From: Moshe Flohr <maven@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:23:28 -0500
Subject: Orthodox College Students

 Some/most of the people commenting on this thread keep on bringing up
the idea that (I'm paraphrasing) "those who become less committed to
Torah and Yiddishkeit as a result of attending college were not really
committed in the first place". Similarly some have said that it's "an
advantage (!)" to find oneself challenged and will strengthen those who
meet these challenges". I find these statements very puzzling and even
disturbing.  One of the tefilos (prayers) that we say *every day* is
"val teviainu lo leeday nisayon" - "do not bring us to temptation etc.",
so HOW is it that people feel just the opposite - that we SHOULD put
ourselves in a place of nisayon (temptation)?!?
 As far as generally "insulating" ourselves from outside influences by
limiting our interaction with those who challenge our beliefs, I believe
that this is not indicative of a failure in our Torah hashkafa and in
fact is quite proper. People with very strong hashkafas have their highs
and lows as well. As it says in Mishle, Al tamin be'atzmecho ad yom
moscho, (do not beleive in yourself [even] until the day you die).We
must be "on guard" at all times because the Yetzer Hora does not sleep
or slack off from his mission to present us with challenges. We need not
(indeed MUST not) seek out more "opportunities" to be challenged. Also,
we cannot afford to write off anyone from Yiddishkeit. If insulating
ourselves if only to keep some people back who "are looking for an
excuse" because now (temporarily) they do not have the "excuse" yet,
that too is good. Perhaps in the meantime they will become strengthened
and stronger in their hashkafos, "mitoch shelo lishma ba lishma" (doing
insincerely will lead them to doing sincerely).  As far as those who say
"Look at so and so who attended college and look how "frum" he is,
etc.", I seem to remember that a famous sage stated that this is ALSO
the work of the Yetzer Hora. He lets some "slip by" to "bribe" us into
believing that it's just fine and even "glatt kosher".
 Moshe Flohr


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:05:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Why not make aliya?

In MJ v31n20, Carl Sherer asks, in response to posts about the
difficulties re special education:

> This is something that has always puzzled me. I see parents, who are
> friends of ours, who have jobs that are nothing special, with incomes
> that are less than nothing special, with kids with very special needs
> that are ready to send their kids to public schools R"L or pay
> thousands upon thousands of after tax dollars in tuitions, but they
> would not even consider coming on aliya. Can someone on that side of
> the ocean explain why? I am at a loss to explain it.


-- language difficulties or lack of confidence about learning a new one
-- no friends or social network there
-- no grandparents will be there
-- need to be available for aging parents here
-- no special job skills to take there
-- unwillingness to uproot other children from their social networks

Just my 2c....

Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"


End of Volume 31 Issue 22