Volume 31 Number 45
Produced: Wed Feb 9 20:52:13 US/Eastern 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Chilling stories (3)
[Bill Bernstein, Carl M. Sherer, Betzalel Posy]
Clarification of my posting on College
[Russell Hendel]
Parnuseh and Education (2)
[Gershon Dubin, Carl Singer]
Secular colleges (and Jewish High Schools)
[David I. Cohen]
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From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:46:13 -0600
Subject: Re: Chilling stories
Dr Press gives a lengthy post in a recent MJ on the dangers of going to
college. While I am trying to sift what points are being made, I
believe he has hit on a useful distinction: ortho-praxy vs orthodoxy.
The students most as risk of "dropping out" would seem to be ones whose
observance is merely a life-style rather than rooted in belief. Also
imho, large communities tend to enforce a kind of conformity among
people who live there, so standing out is a negative trait. When such a
person goes to a different environment, the same value is there, namely
conforming, but the conformance is to something other Orthodoxy. It
would be interesting to compare stories of people who grew up religious
in smaller communities and went to college vs those who grew up in
larger communities.
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From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:00:18 +0200
Subject: Chilling stories
Melech Press writes:
> The assumption is further proven false by the results of Modern Orthodox
> education and its failure to enable its products to withstand the
> pressures of the university world. If Dr. Parness and others were
> correct, such students would do better when faced by the challenges of
> college. One has only to speak to teachers in such schools or to
> personnel on campuses to discover the dramatic drop out rate for
> students who go to settings without strong Orthodox communities. (I
> might note that my daughter, a graduate student at Princeton, has
> observed consistently that many of the Modern Orthodox undergraduate
> students she has met at the CJL are Orthoprax to some degree but not
> believers. Of course, this remains anecdotal evidence.)
FWIW my own undergraduate experience at Columbia (which even in my days
HAD a strong Orthodox community) confirms Dr. Press's observations. At
the time, I had never heard the term "Orthoprax," but there was a group
of MO high school grads that we referred to as "Yarmulka Jews." They
would put on the their yarmulkas if they thought it would induce women
to date them. I doubt that any of them are fruhm today. I think the drop
out rate might have been a bit lower for those who commuted rather than
living on campus.
However, I do not recall seeing a similar phenomenon when I was in law
and business school a few years later. I would be interested in hearing
Dr. Press comment as to the age (if any) at which the environment
becomes less of an influence.
Carl M. Sherer
mailto:<cmsherer@...> or mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, Baruch Yosef ben
Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. Thank you very much.
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From: Betzalel Posy <kbposy@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:58:01 -0500
Subject: Chilling stories
From: Melech Press <mpress@...>
>None the less, I want to comment on the psychological naivete of the
>discussion about chilling stories of those who went to college and why
>they have abandoned Judaism. The assumption made by some of the
>participants that the problem is one of intellectual preparation and
>that failure to survive in a hostile world is the result of intellectual
>unpreparedness or lack of "vaccination" is simply wrong. ... (I might
>note that my daughter, a graduate student at Princeton, has observed
>consistently that many of the Modern Orthodox undergraduate students she
>has met at the CJL are Orthoprax to some degree but not believers. Of
>course, this remains anecdotal evidence.)
Being relatively close to the experience of a secular undergraduate
university, I'm have a slightly different take on the very common
experience of degredation of frumkeit. Of course, a very small
percentage of college students choose to leave the derech because of
"Hashkafic Problems". Almost everyone I met like that had long since
decided to leave the fold, and had chosen to attend an secular
university for precisely that reason. The family religious background
that they came from ranged the spectrum, from chareidi to Conservative.
But most kids with a dayschool education, and I would venture to guess
all, and unconnected to the level of religiosity of the school,
experience significant decline in level of stringency of their
ovservance of Halacha while in secular college. Simply the fact that
they are totally immersed 24-7 in a secularly focused, and liberal
attitude foreign to even the most left wing othodox community causes
them to have no anchor at all to pay attention to their shmiras mitzvos.
No matter how strong a level of abstract belief, the loosening of the
community support structure always has some effect. Will a kid loose
_all_ connection to mitzvos, or even a lot of, (torah is another
subject) depends on family, community, friends, etc... Many, if not
most, even "orthoprax" kids, who lose it to some degree or another in
college come back to some degree afterward for family and hashkafic
reasons. But I think there is no question that anyone who does not go
away to college with the assumption of "echta (maybe only b'shgeg)
v'ashuv" is fooling themselves. For those parents that highly value
only the secular education, rather than the secular environment, they
might consider having their kids stay at home during college. Most frum
jews in the United States live in easy commute from a high caliber
secular university. There are many Orthodox parents, however, who also
value the many advantages of a secular environment for their children,
at least during their college years. Most colleges similarly value this
environment. (This was subject of a highly publicized lawsuit by some
of my peers at Yale University). Some parents may make the calculation
that the few years of college are worth the short term lower level of
observance. Many, I think, delude themselves that their son/daughter,
is different, and most kids keep most of the effect from their parents.
I think it is ironic that a significant number of kids do become frum at
secular university, often from under the influence of the orthodox
community whose members on an individual basis are sliding in the other
direction. I freely admit that this post is somewhat autobiographical,
but I think that the observations are valid nonetheless. And even though
I went to a school with a relatively small community, my non-jewish
coworker, who was an RA at Columbia College, the classic "jewish Ivy",
made the same observation about the frumkeit of his "orthodox"
residents.
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From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:02:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Clarification of my posting on College
I seem to have received several (uncalled for) heated responses to my
posting on College which upon closer examination agree with me. For
example:
Jerry Parnes V31n36 cites several 'chilling' stories about Yeshiva
students who turned out poorly and then concludes
>Let each of us know
>their own limitations and not assume that everyone else is like our
>weakest link. It is limiting, and ultimately self-defeating.
But that was EXACTLY my mother's point...some of her children 'could'
survive in an out of town college while others could not. Furthermore as
a parent she did not trust her children to make their own decision. The
issues that Jerry brought up about Drugs in Yeshiva while they may be
interesting had NOTHING to do with the topic of discussion which was the
survival possibilities of people in outside-Jewish environments (like
Colleges OR concentration camps or whatever).
Similarly the comments that if 'out of town' means say NY and a
religious community and 'in town' means some city without a Jewish
community then indeed one should go out of town---these comments are
consistent with the guidelines I mentioned from the Rav, Rabbi Haramati
and my mother.
As for my use of the word 'chilling' I deeply resent the notion that it
was a scare tactic--my point was that what was at stake was not just
whether the person would stop going to minyan or be shomer shabbas--the
issue was whether a 4 year exposure could cause intermarriage (that was
the point of the Ravs story...and yes the Rav did emphasize that this
was a college without a Jewish community so that generalizatins to
colleges with Jewish communites would not be warranted.)
I hope this clarifies what I said
Russell Hendel; Phd ASA; Math Towson Univ
Moderator Rashi Is SImple; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:15:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Parnuseh and Education
On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:54:36 EST <CARLSINGER@...> writes:
<<environment -- could even a Lakewood have saved him? (And yes there
are anecdotal stories in both directions.) I'm trying to quantify
unquantifiable concepts, but I hope you see where I'm going.>>
I will allow for argument's sake the premise that Lakewood is
the perfect environment. If you have a child who has the 1% risk you
describe, do you put him in Lakewood, YU or Berkeley? He may trip over
the 1% as you say, anywhere, but why make it easier? The Gemara
describes the Jews at the time of the egel (golden calf) as having been
put in a tempting situation and, "ma ya'aseh haben shelo yecheta?" (what
should the child in those circumstances do? He is "set up" to fail.)
Improve the environment, and you improve the chances.
<<HaShem is indeed the source of parnuseh, but we no longer get the
munn.>>
Therefore? Do we no longer get parnasa from Hashem albeit in a more
hidden, natural way?
<< A very old joke Yiddish joke>>
The joke was mildly amusing the first time I heard it. As an
argument for a particular point of view, it is a dismal failure. Either
you believe that parnasa comes from Hashem or you don't.
<<To take the extreme intepretation of "al tevienu liydai nisayon" you
would need to lock yourself in your room and shut the blinds. >>
I don't believe the Rambam thinks that so outlandish; I believe
IIRC that this is his prescription for times when a proper environment
is not available.
<<In my judgment -- and I have to make the decision -- given my
children's background, upbringing and midot the secular university is
not a risk. I didn't say not a "greater" risk, not a risk (period.)
Since I don't except your premise that the secular university is a
nisayon in this context.>>
I hope for your sake that I'm wrong. I don't think I am, and I
ALSO don't think that means your kids or anyone else's will necessarily
be influenced negatively. I don't think you have the right to take the
chance when more Jewishly suitable alternatives are available.
<<They've chosen a lifestyle consonant with their beliefs and / or their
fears.>>
Please explain to me the difference in life style between
someone who graduates YU and someone who graduates a secular university
with the same degree.
Gershon
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From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:01:45 EST
Subject: Re: Parnuseh and Education
<gershon.dubin@...> writes:
I guess it's more appropriate to emphasize where we may disagree than to
stress points of agreement. <CAS>
<<HaShem is indeed the source of parnuseh, but we no longer get the
munn.
Therefore? Do we no longer get parnasa from Hashem albeit in a more
hidden, natural way?>>
Getting the munn was an act of pure emunah. No hoarding, etc., All you
had to do was go out and gather it. It required nothing else on our
part. Earning a parnasa from Hashem involves work on our part. There
is no "entitlement" nor can one expect the Aybishter to provide a
parnusa unless we give it our best effort to work. -- Hashem blesses
the work of our hands -- doesn't do the work for us. <CAS>
<<To take the extreme intepretation of "al tevienu liydai nisayon" you
would need to lock yourself in your room and shut the blinds.
I don't believe the Rambam thinks that so outlandish; I believe IIRC
that this is his prescription for times when a proper environment is not
available.>>
Is the environment that traif? -- if so, escape to another place seems
an appropriate alternative? <CAS>
<<In my judgment -- and I have to make the decision -- given my
children's background, upbringing and midot the secular university is not
a risk. I didn't say not a "greater" risk, not a risk (period.) Since
I don't except your premise that the secular university is a nisayon in
this context.>>
I hope for your sake that I'm wrong. I don't think I am, and I ALSO
don't think that means your kids or anyone else's will necessarily be
influenced negatively. I don't think you have the right to take the
chance when more Jewishly suitable alternatives are available.
Suitable -- in what way? <CAS>
<<They've chosen a lifestyle consonant with their beliefs and / or their
fears.>>
Please explain to me the difference in life style between someone who
graduates YU and someone who graduates a secular university with the same
degree.
YU is a fine school but it's only one choice among many, there are
better schools and schools with specialties that YU does not offer. My
oldest son has thrived there, but we decided it's not to send our second
son there. There are big schools, little schools, urban schools, rural
schools, etc., one size does not fit all. <CAS>
Also, I believe the original discussion was about college and secular
education at all -- that backs us into what pre-college path do we
choose for our children. Day school, Cheder, Yeshiva, public school?
<CAS>
Carl A. Singer
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From: David I. Cohen <BDCOHEN613@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:00:34 EST
Subject: Secular colleges (and Jewish High Schools)
While I have great respect for the knowledge and opinions of
Dr. Press, I believe that he missed the point that I (and I believe Carl
Singer and our mutual friend Jerry Parness) was trying to make.
To me, it is not an issue of "making" children attend secular
universities rather than YU or Touro. It is a question of whether we
should allow them to consider an option other than YU. My answer, and I
base this on some experience, is that it depends on the child. A child
(or better, young adult) who adamantly does not want to be at YU (for
whatever reason) is going to be much better off at a secular
institution, provided there is available adequate Jewish orthodox
infrastructure to make an Orthodox life fulfilling. Forcing that student
to YU can be extremely counterproductive. In my days (late 60's early
70's) and from what I know of conditions today, there are significant
numbers of students at YU who are only there because their parents would
not allow other options, and their attitude shows. Their influence is
profoundly detrimental, especially if we compare it to the influence of
committed Orthodox students, making vibrant Orthodox life happen for
themselves and their peers at secular colleges, through their own
efforts. A few years ago, I read in the Commentator of the problem of
chilul shabbat in the YU dorms!
The bottom line is that at that stage in life, the important
influence will be the peer group that your child chooses, no matter what
school they attend. And the choice of peer group will in part depend on
the attitudes toward their Jewish upbringing that they bring with them.
Which leads me to the next point: High School. Why is it that our
Jewish high schools are (with some notable exceptions) are afraid of
students who ask the tough questions? Is there a faster way to turn off
a thinking teen ager? And, yes, Dr. Press, I can't dispute your clinical
experience, but there must be some intellectual challenging teens who
make lifestyle decisions on based on the way they are responded to by
teachers and role models.
David I. Cohen
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End of Volume 31 Issue 45
