Volume 31 Number 52
Produced: Sat Feb 12 23:24:08 US/Eastern 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Aliyah
[Edward Ehrlich]
Dibat HaAretz
[Carl M. Sherer]
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From: Edward Ehrlich <eehrlich@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:19:00 +0200
Subject: Aliyah
Russel Hendel raised the question of sexual harassment in Israel. I
think that he has not given an accurate description of the current
situation in Israeli society.
>a) TEENAGE YEARS: A former prime minister of Israel openly said that the
>army is "where people learn about sex." I know that Carl will probably
>tell me that religious girls are exempt from the army, but I don't want
>to emigrate to a country where all non-religious girls are subjected to
>a 'military' life. Furthermore, although people learn about sex in
>colleges the distinction is that the colleges do not have an enforceable
>environment. Whether we like it or not America has no forced military
>conscription while Israel does.
I think a more accurate statement would have been that while serving in
the army is "WHEN people learn about sex" in Israel. Young secular
Israelis (and at least some observant ones also), like their
counterparts in most Western societies frequently become sexually active
at the age of 18 through 20. This happens to be when women do their
obligatory army service.
There was a recent survey that showed that Israelis are less sexually
active than Americans.
>Furthermore, although people learn about sex in
>colleges the distinction is that the colleges do not have an enforceable
>environment. Whether we like it or not America has no forced military
>conscription while Israel does.
I'm not sure what Russel means by "an enforceable environment". Israel
women soldiers are forced to make their beds, keep their weapons clean,
do kitchen duty, file papers, treat the wounded and carry out many other
tasks (there is a move to allow them into more combat orientated roles
also), but sex is not one of them. Unfortunately, there are cases of
sexual harassment in the Israel army, but I see no sign that this are
more prevalent than in any other work environment.
As far as college is concerned, the public university that I attended,
with its co-ed dorms was a far more permissive environment than the
Israeli army. The average Israeli soldier, male or female, is in a far
less permissive, more structured environment, and is a lot more tired,
than a student in an American university.
>b) WORK PLACE: As indicated America has very strong harassment laws;
>CEOs and managers try and avoid lawsuits(this fact is not contradicted
>by American promiscuousness in the workplace--harassment is very
>distinct then promiscuousness). By contrast there is little legal
>protection in Israel (though some recent supreme court decisions may be
>changing that)
An increased sensitivity to the problems of sexual harassment is one of
the good things that Israel is learning from the United States. I agree
that there have been more legal battles over it in the United States. I
have no idea in which country the harassment is more prevalent.
>c) DIVORCE: The waiting, inefficiency of courts, & necessity to give up
>equitable shares of estates for a divorce are all public knowledge
I have no intention of defending the Israeli rabbinate which among other
things has not done enough, IMHO, about the agunot problem. But a women
living in the United States runs the risk of her husband obtaining a
civil divorce without her consent and having no legal recourse to force
him to grant her a get.
>d) EMIGREES: People still crack jokes about Russian emigrees asking
>where to find employment who are told to go to places where prostitutes
>hang out
I don't think that anti-immigrant prejudice in Israel is generally about
sexual harassment. All I can report is that in the 23 years that I've
been living in Israeli I've ran into strong anti-immigrant feeling
directed against myself only once. Of course that is one time too many.
But in the 24 years that I lived in the United States, I encountered
anti-Semitism personally directed against me on two occasions, so
overall although Israelis are not free of bigotry, it has not been a
major problem.
>I would be happy to find out only 1 or 2 of these are still serious
>problems But they are problems and Israel has to offer a comparable work
>environment to those who want it. Saying that Bais Yaakov teachers have
>none of the above problems is avoiding issues. Religious girls have a
>right to be CEOs or computer scientists or whatever they
>want. Halachically, the right to a 'safe work place' is one of the 3
>permissabilities for leaving Israel.
As someone with three daughters, I full agree that women (and
non-religious women) have a right to be CEOs or computer scientists or
whatever they want. There are not too many women CEOs in either the
United States or Israel. I know that my current company certainly has a
large number of women (and generally religious) computer programmers.
The situation in neither the United States or Israel is yet ideal
regarding sexual harassment. It seems to me that the typical
differences between the Israeli and American workplaces are not enough
to justify Russel's claim that the prevalence of sexual harassment is so
great, that it's halakhikly justified to leave Israel. But I would hope
that someone like Russel who is genuinely sensitive to problems such as
sexual harassment would "make aliyah". The more people like him who are
against sexual harassment and support the rights women in the workplace
that Israel, the better and stronger Israel will be.
Ed Ehrlich
mailto:<eehrlich@...>
Jerusalem, Israel
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From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:32:27 +0200
Subject: Dibat HaAretz
I should begin this answer by informing you all that I have sent a
strongly worded mecho'o (protest) to our listowner for allowing the post
to which I am responding to go through. The person who wrote it may not
be ashamed of what he has written, but I am ashamed that such words
could be published on a list that is one of my favorite pastimes, and as
such I will respond to him as if he were writing anonymously. [Avi - I
consent in advance to your deleting this paragraph].
[I've let it in. After reading Russel's submission, I felt it would do
more to have a response from the readership, rather than just my
response. There are a number of issues that the post has brought in the
replies, that I think are valuable topics of discussion for the
group. Mod]
Someone writes:
> Briefly I would posit that sexual harassment is much more common in
> Israel then it is in the US
On what basis is the poster making this "posit"? I don't see even one
statistic to back this "posit." I would posit that there are NO
statistics because this is pure dibat ha'aretz (slander about Eretz
Yisrael). I think we all need to remember what happened to the meraglim
(spies) after they did something similar. See Bamidbar 13-14.
> and this constitutes a legitimate reason
> (halachically and morally) for not going on Aliyah.
The poster cites NO proof for this assertion. He states it as if it were
fact, that the things he goes on to describe exist (which they do not in
the form he has described them) and that this constitutes a "legitimate
reason" (*halachically and morally* - as if the two are separable R"L)
for not going on aliya. Even if we assume that everything the poster
wrote is true (which it is not), there is not a single recognized posek,
not even one, who says that the general existence of such things, not
specific to the person asking, would absolve anyone from the mitzva of
moving to Israel.
> First let me mention that there was in fact an (embarassing) cover story
> on Times Magazine (in 1994?) that dealt with this topic.
Note that this is the only "source" cited in this entire diatribe. We
don't know if this is the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the
Washington Times, Time Magazine, or maybe even Changing Times. We don't
know the year. This is a source?
> a) TEENAGE YEARS: A former prime minister of Israel
What former Prime Minister of Israel? When did s/he say it?
> openly said that the army is "where people learn about sex."
Most of the non-religious people I know learned about sex LONG
before the army.
> I know that Carl will probably tell me that religious girls are exempt
> from the army, but I don't want to emigrate to a country where all
> non-religious girls are subjected to a 'military' life.
I don't know why the poster feels qualified to put words into my mouth.
Even if this were true (which it is not), assuming that the poster is
religious, what does this have to do with him? If the poster feels that
drafting women should be done away with (a sentiment with which I agree
wholeheartedly), let him come on aliya and fight for that position. I'll
give you all a hint - he's not going to change anything in Israel while
he's sitting in America.
> Furthermore, although people learn about sex in colleges the
> distinction is that the colleges do not have an enforcable
> environment.
No, American colleges are just the perfect place to send young
impressionable fruhm girls. They won't learn anything about sex at all
there. Yes, I am being sarcastic. Ever hear of "date rape?" Know where
the term originated? You got it. On American college campuses.
> Whether we like it or not America has no forced military
> conscription while Israel does.
Who does America need forced military conscription to fight
against? Canada? Mexico?
> b) WORK PLACE: As indicated
Where?
> America has very strong harassment laws;
They do? Can you say Tail Hook? I guess it can happen anywhere,
can't it?
> CEOs and managers try and avoid lawsuits(this fact is not contradicted
> by American promiscuousness in the workplace--harassment is very
> distinct then promiscuousness). By contrast there is little legal
> protection in Israel (though some recent supreme court decisions may be
> changing that)
As Rebbetzin Boublil has already pointed out, Israel has stronger
anti-haraassment laws than does the US. The Israeli anti- harassment law
might well be considered a first amendment violation in the US because
it inhibits free speech. But this is not the place for that theoretical
argument.
The poster speaks as if he has expertise about what the law is and is
not in Israel. I see no evidence of such expertise.
> c) DIVORCE: The waiting, inefficiency of courts, & necessity to give up
> equitable shares of estates for a divorce are all public knowledge
I would suggest that the poster speak with my friend's mother in New
York who was recently freed from fifteen years as an aguna and ask her
how efficient the American courts are when it comes to obtaining a
get. There was only one jurisdiction that actually arrested her
recalcitrant husband - it was the State of Israel. And they were forced
by the US Embassy to free him, after which he was snuck out of the
country on a duplicate American passport.
In Israel, a man can be put into jail for refusing his wife a get. In
America he can put together a bogus heter meah rabbanim (permission from
one hundred rabbis to remarry - it is only supposed to be granted in
extreme instances where the wife is unable to accept a get) and remarry
without giving his wife a get. In Israel the civil courts will go after
recalcitrant husbands. In America that violates the establishment clause
of the first amendment. Which system would you choose?
> d) EMIGREES: People still crack jokes about Russian emigrees asking
> where to find employment who are told to go to places where prostitutes
> hang out
"People" crack jokes about other ethnic groups the world over. I don't
know what the poster is trying to suggest here. But it sure smells like
dibat ha'aretz.
> I would be happy to find out only 1 or 2 of these are still serious
> problems But they are problems
To the extent that they are problems, they are no worse here than they
are in the United States. They are no halachic justification for not
coming on aliya. They are not even a non-halachic justification for not
coming on aliya.
> Halachically, the right to a 'safe work place' is one of the 3
> permissabilities for leaving Israel.
This is the one "halachic" statement in the entire post. It is also
incorrect. The three justifications for leaving Israel are to find a
wife, to learn Torah or to FIND a job. Not to find a "safe work place."
If one feels "unsafe" in one's work environment in Israel, one should do
what s/he would do anyplace else in the world - find another job. The
three halachic justifications for leaving Israel are found in a Gemara
in Ksuvos 110b-111a.
> Since I have a habit of being misunderstood
I don't think this poster has a habit of being misunderstood. I think he
has a habit of making unsubstantiated ludicrous arguments and a habit of
posting his opinions as "facts." Saying things in CAPITAL LETTERS in an
authoritative manner does not turn them into facts.
> let me make it explicitly clear that ALL I am saying is that in
> certain areas America is superior to Israel in atmosphere
Like the tax code and the securities laws. Even I can agree on that one.
> and the deficiencies in these areas halachically justifies not
> emigrating to Israel
I have to say that this is the first time I have seen an argument on
this list that claims to "halachically justify" something without a
single halachic source. Gdolei Yisrael (the great Rabbis of Israel)
would never make a halachic argument without halachic sources. The rest
of us should not listen to such an argument.
I close only by reminding everyone of the sin of the Meraglim (spies)
and of its outcome. The Meraglim were not punished for saying that there
were anakim (giants) in Eretz Yisrael. They were punished for saying
"efes ki az ha'am" which Rashi explains as "Hashem cannot help us
because the nations are too strong." In other words, the spies
exaggerated and lied regarding the situation in Eretz Yisrael. The
person who sent this post in should take that lesson to heart.
That is ALL that I am claiming.
-- Carl M. Sherer, JD, MBA, Member of the New York and Israel Bars
mailto:<cmsherer@...> or mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, Baruch Yosef ben
Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. Thank you very much.
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End of Volume 31 Issue 52