Volume 31 Number 72
Produced: Tue Feb 29 5:57:48 US/Eastern 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Feeling Invisible
[Elana Schachter]
Invisibility behind the Mechitza
[Janice Gelb]
Invisibility Behind the Mechitza
[Shoshana L. Boublil]
invisible = not a part of
[Ellen Krischer]
Women pray w/minyan vs w/o minyan (5)
[Rose Landowne, Joel Rich, <ESTABESTAH@...>, Michael
Horowitz, A.J.Gilboa]
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From: Elana Schachter <elana@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:20:34 +0200
Subject: Re: Feeling Invisible
I have been a "lurker" on Mail-Jewish for a a while (a form of
VOLUNTARY invisibility :-) ) but this discussion of women's invisibility
is drawing me out into the discussion.
First, I would like to note that the discussion of sexual harrassment
and that of "invisibility behind the mechitza are related. They both
involve seeing a woman as an object or the filler of a role, not as a
living, breathing, unique creation of HaShem.
I appreciate greatly the comments which have supported acknowledging
the feeling of invisibility. That in itself is a form of seeing the
person, even if no steps are taken to change the circumstances which
caused the feeling of invisibility.
I can vouch for the fact that I have felt invisible at times, but even
more than that, I resent the moments behind the mechitza when the Torah
is invisible. I have been in situations in which the mechitza was so
extreme (even being in a separate room!) that when the Torah is held up
and the men say, "VeZot HaTorah..." (This is the Torah...) I can't see
the Torah AT ALL, much less the halachikly prescribed three columns. I
have, Baruch HaShem, recently been privileged to watch my son taking
some big Tshuva steps, and I have observed that one of the things which
has drawn him into the fold is the strong feeling of camaraderie,
exuberance and love among the guys in the minyan. Although some of that
happens on the women's side of the mechitza, it is not the same. I have
had the privilege of participating in a wide spectrum of women's tefila
groups, and I do feel that being functionaries in the production of
communal prayer increases that feeling. Many, many, many orthodox women
do not go to shul at all, because they feel, "If I am basically davening
by myself anyway, I may as well do it at home." (This past Shabbos I
went to a large shul - at least 300 men - and I was the ONLY woman in
the Ezrat Nashim for Kabbalat Shabbat!) In th context of the conference
on feminism and orthodoxy, it may be valid to ask, as Chaim did
> The question arises as to whether the "better to daven with a minyan"
> applies to women too. IOW, if a woman has a choice of (1) davening by
> herself, (2) davening with 50 other women, or (3) davening with a
> minyan (of 10 men), which is the Hallachically and hashkafatilly
> preferable thing to do?
but in day to day, Shabbos to Shabbos life, especially in Kiruv work,
the questions, or the values, may be different. If women coming from
Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal or Conservative backgrounds have had
the (emotionally powerful, believe me!) experience of having an aliya,
or being a ba'alat tefila, or ba'alat koreh in mixed congregations,
might it not be better that there be all women's tefila situations (I am
avoiding use of the word 'minyan')?
One more point: There are phrases in the davening itself which make me
feel invisible. Consciousness has changed over the past millenia, and I
am sure that if there were a Knesset HaGadol today, the prayers that
would be formulated would be worded more inclusively. For example,
saying l'vnei vneihem feels like it is talking about the boys, whereas
ldorot dorotam would feel inclusive. (Please don't start a thread of
apologetics about that phrase - I have heard them all already. This is
just an example of how I feel - the response that would make me feel
less invisible would be, "I can see how that could make you feel that
way.")
I have more to say, but that is enough for now. I am on my way to a
tichel party - one of those occasions where the men are invisible!!
Kol Tuv,
Thanks for providing this forum.
Elana Schachter,
Jerusalem
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From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Invisibility behind the Mechitza
Rena Freedenberg <free@...> wrote:
>
> When we daven, who is supposed to be seeing and hearing us? HASHEM is
> supposed to see and hear us. This goes for both men and women. If you or
> anyone else feels invisible behind or in front of a mechitza, it is
> because you don't understand what you are supposed to be doing
> there. You are not there for a social event, to be seen by the opposite
> sex, to get "honor" by showing yourself off in front of the kehilla, or
> anything except the very serious work of standing in front of Hashem and
> pleading your case.
>
[snip]
> More public doesn't mean more important.
>
Firstly, I'd like to say that praying with a community is also a Torah
value, or there would not be certain prayers that can only be said with
a minyan. Secondly, using the rationale that your arguments about the
purpose of prayer solely being standing in front of Hashem also applies
to men, who do take public roles in the service. Also, please note that
these roles are part of the service and it is not "showing yourself off"
to want to have the opportunity of honoring the Torah or marking an
important (or life-threatening) event in your life with an aliya. Or to
want to daven before the amud, which, for example (as far as I
understand it), is in the case of mourners for weekday services actually
an obligation.
Finally, the main intent at least of my postings on this issue is not to
argue whether women should or should not have a greater public role in
services, but to point out that despite what everyone's approach to
prayer *should* be, claiming as a couple of people have that *no* women
feel invisible behind a mechitza or would like a more public role is
disingenuous.
-- Janice
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From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:15:51 +0200
Subject: Re: Invisibility Behind the Mechitza
> I don't know how men can know how women feel [though several have
> answered this question], so as a woman I will try to explain the
> issue. The issue here is one of faulty hashkafa and a misunderstanding
> of the Torah world.
>
> When we daven, who is supposed to be seeing and hearing us? HASHEM is
> supposed to see and hear us. This goes for both men and women. If you or
> anyone else feels invisible behind or in front of a mechitza, it is
> because you don't understand what you are supposed to be doing
> there. You are not there for a social event, to be seen by the opposite
> sex, to get "honor" by showing yourself off in front of the kehilla, or
> anything except the very serious work of standing in front of Hashem and
> pleading your case.
While I agree with this, if I enter a women's section in a schul and sit
down in the third row (out of 6 or more) and the only way I can tell
that there is Hagba'ha (lifting of the Sefer Torah) is by seeing whether
the first row of women stand -- then there is a problem.
And if the first row are elderly women with physical
disabilities/weakness who don't stand in schul and I find that I have to
go up to the front to see when the Hagba'ha is -- I think there is a
problem.
If I sit in the fourth row and can't see when the Aron Kodesh is open --
there is a problem.
And if sitting in the women's section I can't hear the rabbi, not b/c he
doesn't speak up or b/c women are talking but b/c of bad acoustics (and
there is no hope of actually seeing him) -- then there is a problem.
Unfortunately, in my travels I have come across too many synagogues like
this. B"H I have come across many where women can see these things and
feel part of the congregation who came together to pray to Hashem.
Shoshana L. Boublil
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From: Ellen Krischer <krischer@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:22:20 -0500
Subject: RE: invisible = not a part of
> When we daven, who is supposed to be seeing and hearing us? HASHEM is
> supposed to see and hear us. This goes for both men and women. If you or
> anyone else feels invisible behind or in front of a mechitza, it is
> because you don't understand what you are supposed to be doing
> there. You are not there for a social event, to be seen by the opposite
> sex, to get "honor" by showing yourself off in front of the kehilla, or
> anything except the very serious work of standing in front of Hashem and
> pleading your case.
With all due respect to your views, I think you are misunderstanding the
use of the term "invisible" in this context.
I will not speak for others, but I certainly didn't mean "no one can
physically see me." I meant "it feels like I am not part of the
community." Since one of the points of davening with a minyan would
appear to be so that you are part of the community, it seems to me it
would be very important if there were barriers (yes, I know it is a bad
pun) to a woman feeling included.
If there were no reason for a women to feel included in the community, why
is it better for her to daven in a minyan? Why doesn't she just daven at
home? Then she would be free of all distractions that could come between
her and God?
Ellen Krischer
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From: Rose Landowne <ROSELANDOW@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:19:17 EST
Subject: Re: Women pray w/minyan vs w/o minyan
<< The question arises as to whether the "better to daven with a minyan"
applies to women too. IOW, if a woman has a choice of (1) davening by
herself, (2) davening with 50 other women, or (3) davening with a minyan
(of 10 men), which is the Hallachically and hashkafatilly preferable
thing to do? >>
Rabbi Saul Berman discussed this very issue at the JOFA conference
(Tapes are for sale). He stated that since, Tefilah b'tzibor is
optional for women, it is up to the individual to choose whether to
participatein a tzibor, or whether there would greater kevana or
spiritual benefit from the non-tzibor davening .
Rose Landowne
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From: Joel Rich <Joelirich@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:39:16 EST
Subject: Re: Women pray w/minyan vs w/o minyan
Since prayer with a minyan is not strictly "required', the question is
"better than what"? This applies to men as well - is it better to daven
at a minyan or to learn? Is it better to daven at a minyan or put food
on the table? Is it better to daven at a minyan or buy your kid a car?
Is it better to daven at a minyan with less devotion or privately with
more? Is it better to daven at a minyan or have your child spend less
time with a non-Jewish caregiver? I know the answers for myself (They
might actually surprise you -- offline) but not necessarily for
others. One thing for sure -- what we decide informs our children, our
neighbors, ourselves and hashem where our priorities are.
Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich
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From: <ESTABESTAH@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:32:06 EST
Subject: Re: Women pray w/minyan vs w/o minyan
I heard in the name of Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky that he advises women also,
if they can to khap (catch) a tfila betzibur (communal prayer). There
are however many variables that can supersede that. Just thinking about
past experiences... there's nothing like a group of Jews. You
definetely feel the holiness in the air.
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From: Michael Horowitz <michaelh1@...>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 17:22:05 PST
Subject: Re: Women pray w/minyan vs w/o minyan
The question arises as to whether the "better to daven with a minyan"
applies to women too. IOW, if a woman has a choice of (1) davening by
herself, (2) davening with 50 other women, or (3) davening with a
minyan(of 10 men), which is the Hallachically and hashkafatilly
preferable thing to do?
Rabbi Bleich of YU ossurs womens teffilla groups, on the grounds the
women perform a mitzva kiyum, ie the fulfill a mitzva that they are
alllowed, but not commanded to do by davening with a minyan.
Therefore he rules that if a women is taking the effort to daven with a
group then it should be with a halachic minyan.
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From: A.J.Gilboa <bfgilboa@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:16:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Women pray w/minyan vs w/o minyan
Perhaps we should reverse Chaim Mateh's question -
"Does a minyan of ten men benefit if there are women in attendance on
the other side of the mhitza?" In other words, is the "tzibbur" more
complete if it includes women as well as men?
It has frequently been stated that women's prayer is more effective than
men's prayer. This has also been suggested as the underlying reason for
exempting women from tfilla b-tsibbur, i.e., they do not need the added
benefit of a minyan because even their individual prayers will not go
unanswered.("Mitzvat `ase she-ha-zman gramah" is perceived as merely a
technical reason.) If this is the case, it seems that the minyan on one
side of the mhitza ought to be better off having even one woman on the
other side.
Further to Chaim's post. There are many other conditions that should be
met in order for tfilla to be at its best. Some of these may contradict
even attending a minyan if, for example, one cannot concentrate because
of distractions in the minyan. If, for example, a woman feels freer to
express her devotion to God in an all-female prayer group, this may be a
good enough reason both halachicly and hashkaficly for her to prefer
this mode of prayer over a "proper" mhitza minyan.
Do you agree?
Yosef Gilboa
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End of Volume 31 Issue 72