Volume 32 Number 04
Produced: Thu Apr 6 7:04:09 US/Eastern 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
"Kosher" Prenup
[Sheldon Meth]
Source for a Kallah - a Queen
[Shoshana L. Boublil]
Tanoim (5)
[Aliza N. Fischman, Carl Singer, Shalom Krischer, Gershon
Dubin, Esther Zar]
Who wants to marry a multimillionaire (3)
[David I. Cohen, Carl M. Sherer, Chaim Shapiro]
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From: Sheldon Meth <SHELDON.Z.METH@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:23:23 -0400
Subject: "Kosher" Prenup
In V32N01, A. J. Gilboa writes: "...the accepted American Orthodox method
of having the couple sign a kosher prenuptial agreement..."
Huh? As far as I know, there is no such acceptance. Could A. J. please
cite (1) an American Orthodox posek who permits such an agreement,
thereby making it "kosher"; (2) the text of such an agreement and the
mechanism by which it is made obligatory upon the Chosson and Kallah
(i.e., is it inserted in the Kesubah; is it a separate shtar [contract];
when is it executed, etc.); and (3) the percentage of American Orthodox
couples who use such an agreement, which justifies calling the concept
"accepted"?
I have yet to attend a chasunah (and B"H I've attended many chasunahs
lately) in which such an agreement was used.
-Sheldon Meth
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From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:30:20 +0200
Subject: Re: Source for a Kallah - a Queen
> From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
>
> In various sources a hatan is likened to a king. This notion appears,
> among other places, in Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer, and was further
> developed in the later rabbinic literature. I am interested in written
> sources concerning the concept of a kallah as a queen, an idea which
> seems to be presupposed, though I did not come across it in my scrutiny
> of works on marriage and marriage customs, among them "She-ha-Simhah
> Be-Me'ono" and "Birkat David".
I doubt you will find such a source. But I would like to share my
moment of epiphany with you.
There has been much talk about women and their roles and how women
become closer to Hashem.
I read this question on Friday morning, and had no intention to respond
beyond checking the BIU CD. A few hours later, the Mafroumot
(meat-stuffed potatoes) were cooking, the Couscous was steaming, the
Tefina (Chaulnt) was boiling, and I was shaping the pitot for Shabbat.
I love music, so I had brought my laptop into the kitchen and was
listening to a CD of balads sung by Avraham Fried. When he reached the
Torah Ve'HaUmot (Torah and the Nations), which tells the old tale of how
Hashem offered the Torah to the Nations and they all refused after
making enquiries and finding out that the Torah forbade something that
was a "national pastime" (stealing, killing etc.) [I know this is
sterotypical and not PC]
The song starts with the the words describing the great days of joy
arriving as Hashem is looking for a Groom for his daughter -- the Torah.
And this got me thinking.
When you compare, you are saying that something is like something else.
A King is powerful and commanding. People go out of their way to please
him. So a Groom is compared to a King. And then came this question of
comparing a bride to a Queen, which would appear to be a PC and feminist
thing to do, until you check out and compare the Queen to a King.
For the most part queens have no power of their own (except for the
exceptions). As Esther put it in the Megillah -- she wasn't called to
the king, so being accepted would be on the king's whim. All the
Queen's power is a pale reflection -- if the king loves and respects her
-- people will try to please her so she will plead their case with the
all-powerful King. I recall a novel I once read, where they discussed
the difference between a bad and a good Queen. A good queen was one who
was willing to bend her knees to the king, cry a bit and beg for
concessions from him when necessary. While this doesn't prove anything
-- it should give us food for thought. In general, the power of a Queen
has to do with her the amount of influence she wields over the king.
This is true for all nations and traditions.
Notice, that in Judaism we compare the Torah -- to a Bride. The
question is why? We already know that we must respect the Torah; the
Torah is referred to at times as Hashem's daughter. So why a Bride?
The answer is that the Bride is the highest level in Judaism. Why?
Because when you have a bride you have a marriage and you have the
promise of a future -- future children; future learning of Torah -- the
continuation of the world. So a Bride is respected, the G'mara talks
about how to dance before a bride, b/c a woman deserves all our support,
and respect and help when she accepts to be a jewish bride and carry on
the hope of a future for the Jewish people.
So let us not seek to compare a bride to a queen -- and thereby demote
her. Let us understand that a bride represents Torah and bless her for
it.
Shoshana L. Boublil
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From: Aliza N. Fischman <fisch.chips@...>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:00:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Tanoim
>From: Stephen Colman <stephen.colman@...>
>The Chassidishe minhag of writing Tanoim at the Vort/engagement, is not
>my custom - although in a way it makes more sense than writing Tanoim
>immediately before the Chupa - which seems to me to be a 'Yotzer zein'
>act.
>Can anybody suggest any sources for this minhag - or any particular gain
>or benefit that it provides - spiritually or practically.
The only reason we had tanaim right before the badekin at my wedding was
because it allowed us to give kibudim (honors) to more people. We had 9
people that we wanted to give Brachot to under the chuppah. Being that
that is impossible, we used the Makree Tanaim (Person who reads them out
loud)and Eidei Tanaim (2 witnesses to sign it) as a way to add 3
additional kibudim (honors). I hope this helps. BTW, it also makes for
a great photo op. Always a good thing to have a wedding. :-)
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From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:57:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Tanoim
<< The Chassidishe minhag of writing Tanoim at the Vort/engagement, is not
my custom - although in a way it makes more sense than writing Tanoim
immediately before the Chupa - which seems to me to be a 'Yotzer zein'
act. >>
I understand that this is / was an issue of practicality. Tanoim are,
of course, binding and most difficult to "break" -- a long interval
between Tanoim and the Chasseneh gives opportunity for, chas v'hallileh,
something to go wrong. If it's "oys schiddach" (the pending marriage is
called off) after Tanoim (but, obviously, before the Chupah -- I said
"pending") then we have a sticky wicket (an halochik term which may have
originated in the UK)
Carl Singer
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From: Shalom Krischer <shalom_krischer@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:37:40 -0400
Subject: RE: Tanoim
Stephen Colman writes:
> The Chassidishe minhag of writing Tanoim at the Vort/engagement, is not
> my custom - although in a way it makes more sense than writing Tanoim
> immediately before the Chupa - which seems to me to be a 'Yotzer zein'
> act.
Our Mesader Kedushin tried to convince us not to have Tanoim at our
wedding (as you point out, it seems almost meaningless), but, he was
unsuccessful for a number of reasons. For my part, it gave me a few
more Kebudim (honors) to give out, and, as far as Ellen was concerned,
how could she take away the "Plate Breaking" ceremony from her mother?!?
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:27:46 -0400
Subject: Tanoim
From: Esther Zar <ESTABESTAH@...>
<<And that's why you will find amongst those who still do Tno'im in the
traditional sense and take it seriously, that they will get married
anyways (I doubt it would be a big bash though), even if they would
normally break the shidduch, and then write up a get (bill of divorce) in
order to avoid the severity of breaking a vow.>>
I have heard this before and I think it is a bit of a legend.
Has anyone on the list first hand knowledge of a case where a couple
actually married and divorced rather than break Tnoim?
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Esther Zar <ESTABESTAH@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:36:22 EDT
Subject: Re: Tanoim
Yes, i have chassidishe friends who know people personally who have done
this. would you like me to tell you their names? just kidding now.
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From: David I. Cohen <BDCOHEN613@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:58:40 EDT
Subject: Who wants to marry a multimillionaire
For an interesting take on the dating and shidduch issues in our communities,
see Gary Rosenblatt's editorial in the March 31 issue of the Jewish Week
(available on line)
David I. Cohen
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From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:50:13 +0200
Subject: Who wants to marry a multimillionaire
Esther Zar writes:
> I would say that dating 2 times or 10 times will not change things.
While I don't think that we can generalize to say that anyone who
becomes engaged after two dates does not know the other side
well enough to ensure a successful marriage, or that anyone who
becomes engaged only after ten or more dates does, as a practical
matter, I think that it is much, much more likely that someone's
faults are going to come out in ten dates than they are to come out
in two dates. While I would not advocate dating multiple tens of
times (because of the temptations to which it could lead), I also
think that in most instances two dates are generally insufficient to
see how a person interacts in a variety of situations. And while no
one knows everything about their spouse until they have been
married for some time, I think basic issues of compatability and
reactions to stressful situations are more likely to come out in ten
dates than they are in two.
We
> put in our efforts (in this case, by dating) in order to provide G-D
> with a kli (vessel) to give us our husbands/wives in a natural manner.
> Dating would fall into the category of hishtadlut (our end of the deal,
> AKA effort). But aye now you will quote Rabbenu Bachye who writes that
> since hishtadlut is a mitzva we must put in our very best hishtadlut
> which requires us to do whatever it is that is in our hands to ensure
> success. I would then question you as to whether our effort lies in
> other areas rather than frequency of dating, etc.
I think that our effort lies in trying to ensure that we only date
people who are potentially appropriate for us, and that we do our
best to ensure that we and our spouses can work together as a
team. Keep in mind that dating and even the wedding itself are only
machshirei mitzva (preparations for doing the real mitzva), which is
why the bracha (blessing) made under the chupa (wedding canopy)
is not a birchas ha'mitzva (blessing on a mitzva) but a birchas
ha'shvach (a blessing of praise). How long do we spend on other
machshirei mitzva? How long do we spend choosing an esrog?
Choosing a pair of tefillin? Building a Succa? Lehavdil (to separate
between something that is Holy and a mitzva and something that is
not), how long would we spend meeting with someone before
deciding to enter into a business partnership with them? Would
any of us ever dream of entering into a business partnership (for life
no less!) based on two Sunday afternoons spent walking around
town? Our hishtadlus (effort) is in doing all we can to ensure that
we find the proper zivug (mate). After that, Hashem will ensure our
success or R"L failure.
Carl M. Sherer
mailto:<cmsherer@...> or mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, Baruch Yosef ben
Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. Thank you very much.
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From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:39:50 EDT
Subject: Re: Who wants to marry a multimillionaire
<< I would say that dating 2 times or 10 times will not change things. We
put in our efforts (in this case, by dating) in order to provide G-D
with a kli (vessel) to give us our husbands/wives in a natural manner.
Dating would fall into the category of hishtadlut (our end of the deal,
AKA effort). But aye now you will quote Rabbenu Bachye who writes that
since hishtadlut is a mitzva we must put in our very best hishtadlut
which requires us to do whatever it is that is in our hands to ensure
success. I would then question you as to whether our effort lies in
other areas rather than frequency of dating, etc. I only have to look
back as far as my grandparents for just one example, who have one of the
best marriages I have ever seen. They viewed each other from a
distance, did some checking out, and got engaged the next day. >>
That's just it! In today's microwave society, a quick deal, is a poor
deal. In today's society, simple histadlus requires a minimum of I'd
say 8 dates over a 2 month period, so that one can make a true decision
as to marriage compatibility. Gopne are the days where one could hope
to learn to love a spouse after marriage without a strong spark before
the wedding day.
Chaim Shapiro
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End of Volume 32 Issue 4
