Volume 32 Number 14
                 Produced: Sun Apr 30 11:06:11 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [David Charlap]
Cotton-Seed Oil (6)
         [Danny Skaist, Shlomo B Abeles, David Charlap, Daniel Katsman,
Batya Medad, A.J.Gilboa]
Location of Shushan
         [Daniel Israel]
Misod Hachamim Unvonim
Seder on Motzei Shabbat
         [Yisrael Medad]
U'venuchO Yomar
         [Arie Weiss]
Yeast (3)
         [Jeanette Friedman, Janet Rosenbaum, Best, Barry H]
Yehareg V'al Yaavor
         [Tszvi Klugerman]
Yiddish name question
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
A "Zeesen" Pesach
         [Liz Muschel]


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:31:44 -0400
Subject: Carmine

Alexander Heppenheimer wrote:
> The word is "carmine," which is a red coloring derived from some sort
> of insect. Almost all fruit cocktails sold nowadays use this coloring
> for their cherries: formerly they used an artificial coloring called
> FD&C Red #2, but the FDA withdrew their certification from it because
> it's a suspected carcinogen.

See also http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/colorfac.html

According to the US government, it was FD&C Red #3 (not #2) is the one
which is a suspected carcinogen in rats.  Although no link to cancer in
humans has been shown, it has been banned from use in drugs and
cosmetics.  The FDA plans to recing its approval for use in food as

> On the face of it, carmine shouldn't be kosher since it comes from an
> insect. The point is, though, that R' Ovadia Yosef wrote a halachic
> responsum (which appears in his responsa Yabia Omer 8:11 - hence the
> reference you noted) declaring it kosher. If I recall correctly, his
> reasoning is that the carmine undergoes various chemical processes
> that make it (temporarily) inedible; there are similar arguments in
> the writings of earlier authorities about cochineal (another red dye)
> and shellac, both of which are derived from insect secretions.

This sounds very similar to the status of gelatin.  The Conservative
rabbinate (and possibly some minority-opinion Orthodox rabbis) say that
the process of converting bones into gelatin causes sufficient change as
to render gelatin kosher even if it is derived from non-kosher animals. 
The majority of Orthodox rabbis, however, hold that this is not true -
that the process of making gelatin can not make the substance kosher.

> As to whether you can rely on this leniency and eat the fruit
> cocktail - CYLOR.

Always a good idea.

-- David


From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:53:00 +0200
Subject: Cotton-Seed Oil

From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
> Has anyone heard this about cotton-seed oil, and does anyone know a
> rationale for making cotton-seed kitnios?

The rational is that now cotton seed is mixed with wheat to bake bread
(much the same way that soy is mixed with foods to expand them), thereby
making it "Human food" and therefore kitnyot.


From: Shlomo B Abeles <sba@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:03:06 +1000
Subject: Cotton-Seed Oil

>Bill Bernstein wrote:               Subject: Cotton-Seed Oil
>.. he got cotton-seed oil for Pesach with a "chareidi"-type hashgocho,
>but in subsequent years he could not because it was considered kitnios.

AFAIK - re the Charedi Rabonim's opinion on CS oil - in the US the
Tzelemer Rav approved it for Pesach, as did Rav Landau of Bnei Brak,
whilst the Edah Hacharedis in Jerusalem does not.


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:19:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Cotton-Seed Oil

As far as I can tell, the reason is political correctness.

According to my rabbi, the actual text of the Ashkenazic ban on kitniyot
applies only to the kitniyot themselves (and flours and baked goods made
from same, of course), but not substances derived from kitniyot.
Technically, there should be no problem with any kind of kitniyot-oil.
(Yes, I'm ignoring the question of whether cotton-seed is kitniyot or
not - I really don't know enough to have an opinion on that.)

He would not go so far as to permit us to use products with kitniyot-
based oils and syrups, however.  He said that the reason is that people
are too emotionally tied to the way we observe Pesach today to ever
accept such a "leniency".  (eg: "Drink ordinary Coca-Cola on Pesach?
Not in my house, you apikores!")

Personally, I suspect this practice of going beyond the letter and
spirit of the original ban may now have the status of "minhag yisrael"
(a custom that everybody follows - which has the status of a law), since
it's been observed for over a generation.

-- David

From: Daniel Katsman <danic@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:57:46 +0300
Subject: Cotton-Seed Oil

It's true that for the last several years cottonseed oil has been
considered kitniyyot by the haredi (and probably also non-haredi)
hashgahot.  However, last week I found cottonseed oil labelled "Kasher
le-Pesah beli hashash kitniyyot" with the hashgaha of Rav Landau, Chief
Rabbi of Bnei-Brak and considered very reliable in the haredi world.  I
don't know what brought about this change of heart.

Hag Kasher ve-Same'ah,

Daniel Katsman
Petah Tikva 

From: Batya Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:13:44 +0300
Subject: Re: Cotton-Seed Oil

There's another important issue concerning Cotton-Seed Oil, health.
Cotton is sprayed with all sorts of poisons.  The best, healthiest,
tastiest non-kitniot oil is olive oil.  There's no need to use any
other.  It's a recommended food by the health community and one of the
fruits of Eretz Yisrael.

Chag Kasher V'Sameach

From: A.J.Gilboa <bfgilboa@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:03:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Cotton-Seed Oil

I recently bought "MILOMOR" cottonseed oil with the "haredi" hashgaha of
Rav M.Y.L. Landa, Av Bet Din of Bne Braq in my local (non-haredi)

Who says cotonseed oil is "qitniyot"? Does the word "kutna" = cotton in
Hebrew sound too much like qitnit? This is no joke. Some Jews will not
use vinegar (hometz in Hebrew) because of the obvious phonetic
resemblance to "hametz"!

But if you want a really good question about "qitniyot", perhaps one of
you Yankees can tell me why peanut oil and corn oil with hashgaha for
Pesah no longer exist in the US? They used to be cerified by the OU.

Pesah Kasher v-same'ah

Yosef Gilboa


From: Daniel Israel <daniel@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:51:01 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Location of Shushan

Joshua Hosseinof writes:
>Shushan is now known as Hamadan in Iran.  You will find there the
>reputed graves of Mordechai and Esther, next time you happen to be in

IIRC, the graves of Mordechai and Esther can also be found slightly west
of Tzfat.  FWIW.

In any case, it seems unlikely to me that Esther, the Queen, would have
been buried with Mordechai.  Does anyone know of a source indicating
that this happened (and more importantly, how)?

Daniel M. Israel
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ


From: Mordechai <Phyllostac@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:15:12 EDT
Subject: Re: Misod Hachamim Unvonim

> > From: David Herskovic <crucible@...>
> > Why is the piece beginning 'misod chachomim unevonim' not said before
> > the Yotsros for Musaf on Shabbos Shekolim and Shabbos Ha'Chodesh and at
> > the beginning of the Krovets on Purim morning?

Perhaps a new reshus is not necessary for musaf, if it was recited at

re Krovetz - perhaps, for some reason, a reshus is not recited for them
as they are a different type of (brief) insertion, perhaps similar in a
way to the insertions recited by some in arvis of Yom tov.



From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:02:14 +0300
Subject: Seder on Motzei Shabbat

Now that Pesach is over, we can all begin to think of the options that
exist for keeping one's sanity and Halacha as we approach next year's
Seder which falls on Motzei Shabbat.

Do we use real bread for all the three meals or a appropriate substitute?
Do we bless and take a bite outside on the porch, clean and come in
to finish the meal?  And if one doesn't have a porch, is out in the hall okay?
What is the procedure for the two daytime meals?  What about eating
before Shacharit?
What are the times that count?
Must it all be on plastic or could the main part of the meal after
HaMotzi be on regular Pesach dishes?

Yisrael Medad


From: Arie Weiss <aliw@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:19:49 +0000
Subject: U'venuchO Yomar

not a substantive comment, just correcting a common error:

in Volume 32 Number 12 Elie Rosenfeld said:
    "If anyone is interested, my theory was based on assuming that it was
only off by a handful of words, and had to do with the verses "Vayehi
Binsoa" and "U'venucha Yomar" (Num. 10:35-36)..."
it's "U'venuchO Yomar" referring to the Aron, and i cringe almost 
every shabbat in shul when someone inevitably gets it wrong.
chag kasher ve'sameach


From: Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:47:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Yeast

<< But modern yeast does not become chametz until the moment it is
 mixed with flour and water. >>

Do you mean to say I can buy fleishman's yeast in a package (live or
need to reactivate), mix it into say, hazelnut or potato flour and eggs
with milk and vanilla, cocoa powder and sugar and make a Pesach dough?

If I can do that, I can make a devil's food cake for Pesach? Is that
what you're saying--you can use yeast on Pesach?  I always thought the
deal was "leavening" was chometz--whatever causes dough to rise is
chametz by its very nature, whether it's grown on molasses or mash...

Kosher le pesach baking soda? Sodium Bicarbonate is not Chametz. But it
is a leavening agent. I was always taught it's a no no.

Jeanette Friedman

From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yeast

According to the OK web site, Red Star brand yeast is kosher for pesach.
Other brands may contain small amounts of chometz.  Red Star I know is
one of few major brands which are safe for those who can't eat gluten
(i.e., the five grains).

(unaffiliated with either company mentioned above.)

From: Best, Barry H <barry.h.best@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:17:49 -0400
Subject: RE: Yeast

Michael Shoshani writes in MJ Vol. 32 #11:

> Since one cannot mix flour and water on Pesach, then yeast would be useless

Is this indeed the halachah.  Is one prohibited from making fresh matzoh
on pesach?


From: Tszvi Klugerman <Klugerman@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:38:30 EDT
Subject: Yehareg V'al Yaavor

Just a footnote to the discussion of Yehareg V'al Yaavor (Transgressions
for which one must forfeit their life). The Talmud Bavli in Sanhedrin
74, relates that it was learned in an attic. If I am not mistaken, the
rabbis there were alive during the Hadrianic persecutions and were in
fact discussing the basics of Judaism. How far can one go in times of
shmad (decrees against the observance of Judaism) and still be Jewish?
This line of reasoning and the approach of the Talmud Bavli in Sanhedrin
44a that an Israelite who sins is still an Israelite was used quite
often in the middle ages to allow forced converts and even willing
converts in the face of persecution to return with no or few

The moving language of the Tosafists regarding forsaking the faith not
withstanding, many Rishonim opted to be more lenient bedi'avad (post

Chag Kasher V' sameach



From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:05:53 +0300
Subject: Yiddish name question

Hi, I was asked by a neighbor if I could find out what the yiddish
 girl's name Genendel meant.  The best resource I could think of is the
 mailjewish community. :-) Thank you, Shimon

Shimon Lebowitz           
Jerusalem, Israel                   mailto:<shimonl@...>


From: Liz Muschel <LMuschel@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:55:33 EDT
Subject: A "Zeesen" Pesach

Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "have a zeesen pesach"?
(sweet) We were brought up wishing one another a "chag kasher
v'sameach",(kosher and joyous) and I am curious to know exactly how and
when "zeesen" came about.

Liz Muschel


End of Volume 32 Issue 14