Volume 32 Number 50
                 Produced: Tue Jun 13  5:52:35 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Basic Kashrut Information request (2)
         [Susan Shapiro, David Schiffmann]
Carrying Key on Sabbath and the Duty to Rebuke
         [Carl Singer]
Key on Shabbos
         [Andrew Klafter]
         [David Charlap]
Publicizing Apikorsus (3)
         [Shalom Krischer, Freda B Birnbaum, Nosson Tuttle]


From: Susan Shapiro <SShap23859@...>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:09:30 EDT
Subject: Basic Kashrut Information request

<< How can I find a List or booklet listing and or describing all Kosher
 meats, fish, poultry, etc.? For any help I am truly thankful! >>

The best book, I know of is "Is it Kosher" by Rabbi Eliezer Eidlitz. It
is published by Feldheim.  It goes into many many details, and basics of

Susan Shapiro
S. Diego, CA

From: David Schiffmann <das1002@...>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:53:46 +0100
Subject: Re: Basic Kashrut Information request

> How can I find a List or booklet listing and or describing all Kosher
> meats, fish, poultry etc? For any help I am truly thankful!

The 'Really Jewish Food Guide' (a guide to kosher food available in the
UK), published by the London Beth Din, has in it what I think is a
comprehensive list of kosher fish. You can buy it from the London Beth
Din (http://www.kosher.org.uk/buyguide.html ) or from Jewish bookshops
in London (see http://www.brijnet.org/books/ - e.g. you could contact
'Torah Treasures', or 'Jerusalem the Golden').

However, I expect there are also free sources of this list on the Web or
elsewhere, but I don't know where.

Hope that's at least of some help.

David Schiffmann


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:54:22 EDT
Subject: Re: Carrying Key on Sabbath and the Duty to Rebuke

<<  From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
 > From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
 > 4 - when we lived in suburban Philadelphia (no eruv at that time) my
 > wife wore a charm braclet with a key as a charm.  A Rabbi approached her
 > one day and told her that this was carrying.  Her response (bless her)
 > was "I didn't ask you to pasken for me.")  -- Just a reminder that
 > although some of these methods are publicly visible, it's not our
 > business to decide for others whether it's OK.  I.e., that looks like a
 > key dangling from your ear -- not an earring.

 I agree that individual p'sak halacha is only appropriately given after
 it has been asked for (with some exceptions being situations where there
 is an agreement that a halakhic authority shall instruct people whenever
 he sees fit, such as in a shul or in a school).

 However, your story above is a misapplication of this principle and
 reflects some misunderstandings.

 (1) There is a positive commandment for Jews to rebuke their fellow Jews
 when they see them sinning "...You shall surely rebuke your fellow, and
 bear not his sin.", Vayikra 19:17.  This applies to intentional as well
 as unintentional sins.  See Rambam and Sefer HaChinuch for a good
 overview of the parameters.

 (2) When the sin being withnessed is biblical in origin, it does not
 matter whether the person sinning will heed your advice.

 (3) When the sin is only rabbinic in origin, the person should not be
 warned if we suspect that he will not heed the rebuke.

 I presume that the story you told above involves only a question of
 rabbinic prohibition, since most neighborhoods involve only a rabbinic
 prohibition of carrying on the Sabbath.  However, if your wife was, in
 fact, carrying the key in a manner that constituted a rabbinic
 violation, anyone who saw her doing it was obligated to inform her of
 this.  >>

Such a long answer deserves a short reply, but I am too polite.
The duty to rebuke does not apply three fold -- 

(1) there was no sin being committed.  There was no carrying, k'halach
and per her possek this was an acceptable accomodation.  Any discussion
beyond that needs to be with her possek, who is well versed in the
halacha and was fully aware of the metzia (the actual facts /

(2) If your possek rules differently for you, then you have the right to
act differently for yourself.  But you have neither the duty nor even
the right to "rebuke" someone in this circumstance.  Something generally
referred to in the non-halachik world as mind your own business -- hence
("I didn't ask you.")

(3) You never have the right to embarass someone in public.

Carl Singer


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:44:20 -0400
Subject: Key on Shabbos

> Another "key" issue that I have not heard much about is the act of
> putting the key in the door and letting it swing inward (the key in the
> door that is).  What is happening there is the key is being transported
> from r'shut harabim (public domain) to r'shut hayachid (private domain).
> This might not be an issue in a private house with a front porch, but
> what about in an apartment house.

We are never allowed to carry in a reshus-ha-rabbim.  In communities
with an eruv-enclosure allowing us to carry keys, the community has
carried out an eruv ceremony which converts the neighborhood from a
carmelis (which is not a reshus ha-rabbim in the first place) to a
reshus-ha-yachid.  It is biblically permissable to carry in such a
neighborhood in the first place, and only rabbinically forbidden.  The
eruv-enclosure only allows us to carry in place where there is rabbinic,
and not a biblical, prohibition.  Places that are truly reshus-ha-rabbim
(e.g. Times Square) cannot be converted through eruv or any other method
into a reshus ha-yachid.

Thus, your question assumes that the outside of your front door is a
reshus ha rabbim.  If it were, you would not have been allowed to carry
the key home in the first place.  An eruv could not be established

If someone has a door which opens onto Times Square, I presume that the
a combination lock box hanging from the door handle is still consider
part of the front door and still in the reshus hayachid.  While the key
is in the lock it is also part of the front door.  Therefore, opening
the door with the key in it would not (as I understand the issues)
violate hotza'ah m'reshus l'reshus (carrying from one domain to

-Nachum Klafter


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:14:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Napster

Yossie Abramson wrote:
> According to Jewish law, there are two distinct arguments. One is on
> the user of Napster and one is on Napster itself.
>  I don't see any reason why anybody would allow a user to exchange
> music on Napster. It is in clear violation of copyright laws, and
> therefore is illegal.

You are assuming that everything distributed via Napster is pirated.
This is not the case.  There are many bands who use Napster to
distribute their own material, which is perfectly legal.

While it is true that the majority of Napster users are using it to
pirate music, I don't think it is fair to claim that there is no other
possible use for it.

If you only download material that is legal (where the artist is making
it available or where the artist has given permission), and only
distribute that which you have the right to distribute, there is no
problem, either legally or halachicly.

> As for Napster.com, they clearly are being Chotai Machte es Harabim,
> (A sinner who causes others to sin). By allowing users to have access
> to their system for the sole purpose of illegal activities is most
> definitely assur.

Again, you are assuming that there is no possible use for the program
other than piracy, which is not true.

The program's purpose is to distribute music files, whether they are
legal or not.

I don't see their system as being any more illegal than a photocopier or
a computer.  Both can be used for illegal activity.  Both can be used

A lot of people have CD burners in their computers, and I suspect that a
lot of those owners use them for duplicating music and software CDs. 
Should it therefore be illegal for you and I to use one to record our
own material?

Now, I will admit that the program would not be nearly as popular as it
is if it was only used for distributing those songs that can be legally
redistributed, but should that have any bearing on the halacha?

There are other things which are illegal if misused - like weapons and
drugs.  But halacha doesn't ban them from those who don't misuse them.

-- David


From: Shalom Krischer <shalom_krischer@...>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:36:56 -0400
Subject: Publicizing Apikorsus

> From: Norman Tuttle <TUTTLE@...>
> A halachic forum should not be the place to advertise programs which
> are non-halachic and possibly anti-halachic in nature.

Now wait a minute.  As far as I understand it, this (MJ) is NOT a
"halachic forum".  Although Avi makes it quite clear in every volume's
introduction that:

> Submissions to the mailing list may not advocate actions which are
> clearly in violation of Halakha.

he also states:

> The mailing list is not a halakhic authority, and no discussions held on
> the mailing list should be relied upon in a situation where a p'sak
> halakha [specific halakhic
> decision] is called for

Now, although I am not at all advocating that women enter the Rabbinate
(that "set" of individuals who stand before a congregation exhorting all
their member to repent), women (WITHOUT the title Rabbi) already (nay,
always) have "paskened" (given judgment) on certain questions.  Take,
for example, my (by now famous) mother-in-law, who is a Mashgiach.  What
does a Mashgiach do other than watch food preparation, and pasken that
it is Kosher???  Only if something is out of her/his field of expertise
does such an individual go to a higher authority (and, by the way, not
everyone with a Rabbi title qualifies!).  I do not even want to bring up
the controversial group in Israel training women to answer Taharot
HaMishpocha (family purity?) questions for other women (which I am all

However, if a woman achives the title Rabbi (which does not happen yet
in the Orthodox world, AFAIK) this DOES NOT mean she intends on being
a Pulpit Rabbi, or even a (General) Posek, but rather that she has
completed a large amount of study (with a great deal of comprehension)
for which she has been awarded the titile "Rabbi".  There are a number
of people on this list whom have been awarded the title Doctor (Phd,Scd)
who are NOT qualified to give a Flu shot (although any nurse can).  Why
then are you so offended by the title Rabbi?

Now, assuming the (possible) Non-legitamacy of the title, consider a
dictum I vaguely remember... Ayzehu Chacham, Ha Lomed MiKol Adam
(Who is wise?  (He/She) Who learns from all people)...  (Or did I just
make that up?

From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:12:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Publicizing Apikorsus

I said previously, in response to objections about publicizing
"non-halachic events":

> I do share some of your reservations about the advisability of Drisha
> co-hosting events with organizations which are not specifically
> halachic, and I wouldn't be surprised if there has been some
> discussion over this within Drisha itself.  However, there's plenty of
> halachic material to be studied at the event, and I wouldn't be
> surprised if outreach to "not-yet-observant" folks is part of their
> intention.

Having attended the event in question, I am pleased to report that the
quality of the learning that I attended, led by Drisha people and by
Ma'yan people, was very high, as was the seriousness and insight of many
of the participants.  I learned a lot from people I haven't seen at
Drisha before, and I assume that many non-Drisha folks learned from "us"
as well.  (I confess that I did not go to the more "artsy" sessions; I
stuck to the text stuff.)  I think Drisha is to be commended for the
quality of their programs and their willingness to be involved with the
larger community.

As I commented to the organizers re my evaluation afterward:

 "The pre-Shavuos learn-in was great!  I just want to modify one of the
 comments I made on my evaluation sheet, where I said that I wasn't
 particularly interested in seeing other events co-sponsored with Ma'yan
 but was happy with the annual pre-Shavuos one.  I was reflecting on the
 day and realized that not only is it of benefit to be exposed to new
 teachers, there is a lot of value in being exposed to fellow-students
 with different approaches to the material.  I don't mean this in the sense
 of diversity for diversity's sake; I mean that there was an unusually high
 level of quality and seriousness from a lot of the class participants who
 were clearly not Drisha regulars.  I think it's definitely to be welcomed
 to have more opportunities for this kind of exchange.  And I think by
 having good quality teachers, we will attract high-quality students..."

I commented to a friend how impressed I had been with one of the Ma'yan
teachers, and she said:

 "Interesting that you liked her.  If not for lack of opportunities for
 women [at the time when this woman began to study], she might be one of
 Drisha's rather than one of Mayan's."

Drisha definitely improves the quality of MY "neighborhood"; may they
"live long and prosper"!

Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

From: Nosson Tuttle <TUTTLE@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:34:08 -0400 
Subject: Re: Publicizing Apikorsus

Yes, I am the Nosson Tuttle who still runs Mazel Tov Singles, along with
my wife and the rest of the committee.  At this point we are up to our
third Shabbaton for Kohanim (and women who are permissible to them).  If
anybody wants further information, the site is

Freda may think I am coming down hard on the Drisha/Ma'yan conference
(posted by her in Vol. 32 #29 under the subject "pre-Shavuot tikkun:
Women and Leadership") by labeling it "Apikorsus"; there is no doubt
some of the sessions may have Torah content.  I am not opposed to Kiruv
as the concept of non-religious people on the receiving side of
instruction; the point is that a non-religious and possibly
anti-religious (considering their emphasis on changing institutions)
organization is co-sponsoring and contributing instruction, much of
which will be actual Apikorsus.  Considering that there are no women
rabbis within the Orthodox movement, a women professing to be one
(rather than, say, a female "Chacham", or the new title of "Rabbinical
assistant") would be outside the pale of Frumkeit and her teaching would
be suspect.

Again, I do not know anything about this Drisha Institute (web site
unavailable) and my first impression is based on this partnering with a
non-Halachic organization.  So I really would not know what question to
ask them.

-Nosson Tuttle


End of Volume 32 Issue 50