Volume 32 Number 69
                 Produced: Fri Jun 30  6:34:03 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cholent shailah
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Drug Problems in the Yeshiva World
         [Frank Silbermann]
Kashrus Organizations and "Tragedy"
         [Bill Bernstein]
Kiddush for a daughter as a segula for a good shiduch
Kosher l'mihadrin
         [Danny Skaist]
Meir Einei Chachomim
         [Paul Ginsburg]
'Mixed' religious/secular Jewish couples
Moyled before rosh chodesh bentshn
         [Perets Mett]
Tora Cycle
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
travel info wanted: Seville, Spain
         [Immanuel Burton]
Rental: Har Nof


From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:12:25 EDT
Subject: Cholent shailah

I had an interesting Shailah this past Shabbas.  I was eating at a
persons house for shabbas lunch, who also had a shabbas guest sleeping
over.  I got the heads up from someone that the house guest has a
tendency to go into the crockpot shabbas morning.  While I have never
seen him do so, I am 99% sure he does not do so K'halacha.  It is
likewise unlikely that the host would know that what his guest was doing
could create a halachik question.

Normally, I would simply not eat the cholent, and avoid the problem,
however, as everyone who knows me knows, me not eating cholent is the
equivalent of the sun not rising in the morning (one of my screen names
is cholentman).  Avoiding the cholent would certainly lead to an
uncomfortable confrontation.

The psak was that I could eat the cholent, because Lhalacha, only 2 of
the required 5 criteria need to be met B'deved [after the fact. Mod.]
The two I could count on were, the cholent was fully cooked and the Bal
habus (host) intended to serve the cholent later.  I am luck I asked, as
the houseguest did eat cholent for breakfast that morning!

Chaim Shapiro


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:49:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  Drug Problems in the Yeshiva World

In v32n59 Martin Epstein
> The concept that acknowledging drug abuse in our community is lashon hara
> belies a belief that drug use represents a problem to be understood as
> essentially different from other human problems in our community.
> Somehow I doubt anyone would consider acknowledging depression,
> materialism, or ongoing singlehood as lashon hara.

I suspect that our willingness to address a community problem depends
upon the extent to which publicity would constitute a Chillul Hashem.
Consider Martin's examples of problems we do not hesitate to admit:

(1) depression -- The frum world cannot be blamed for the fact that some
    people suffer from a chemical imbalance.  Our acknowlegement of the
    problem shows our caring.

(2) materialism -- The secular world tolerates materialism.
    When we attack its manifestations within the frum community,
    we demonstrate our higher standards.

(3) ongoing singlehood -- The secular world accepts ongoing singlehood.
    By considering ongoing singlehood in the frum community to be a problem,
    we distance ourselves from secular values.

On the other hand, to admit behavior within the frum community that
the secular world _also_ strongly disparages opens the Torah community
to outside criticism.  Thus, we tend to suppress scandals involving
things like spousal abuse or child molestation, and severely resent
anyone who would publicize such a problem.

Drug abuse among our young probably falls into this latter category.

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana


From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:37:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Kashrus Organizations and "Tragedy"

A recent posting on the closing of Ratner's restaurant deserves some comment.

First, to use the term "tragedy" to describe the closing of a restaurant
is a travesty.  The recent death of the Satmar rebbe's grandaughter and
her infant, the continuing troubles in Israel, the issues of Orthodox
"youth on the edge" etc etc are all tragedies.  One blintz less is not a
tragedy.  It is outrageous to use the same language and images to
describe a restaurant closing (a frequent occurance) as one would use
for, e.g Tisha B'Av.  As I think about it I have to say I am personally
offended by the post--something which seldom happens.

Second, on the issue of kashrus org's control of an establishment: the
org's are giving hashgocha.  The establishment has contracted for that.
It is an entirely voluntary arrangement that can be abrogated according
to a mutually agreed on contract.  I don't see any problem with that.
If the Chof-K or whoever demanded that all waiters in an establishment
wear purple shoelaces, then the proprietor can always seek supervision
elsewhere or none at all.  The Orthodox community is under intense
scrutiny from other Jews and from the media.  We are supposed to stand
for a certain level of behavior.  The kashrus organizations for better
or worse have often had the role of arbiter placed on them or assumed it
voluntarily.  They obviously feel that their even appearing to
countenance certain types of behavior is problemmatic, and they have
responded accordingly.  I suspect they would rather be out of the morals
business,but have had this thrust on them.  If we have problems with
this then we need to do a better job of policing ourselves individually.


From: <moish@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:08:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Kiddush for a daughter as a segula for a good shiduch

From: Judith Weil <weildj@...>
>I heard this story once, and I got the impression that it was the good
>wishes that did the trick. She'd missed out on the good wishes she
>should have had as a baby.
>However I must say that I did feel rather sorry for a girl of 20+ having
>a kiddush in this way, and I wonder how they managed it tactfully. Maybe
>someone can help here.

I heard that it was indeed attributed to the fact that she missed out on
the good wishes that people normally give when attending a Kiddush for a
newborn. I heard that there is a Medrash that says that the Wishes given
at a Simcha has an impact on the child. Can anyone provide information
where this Medrash is located?

As to how they managed a Kiddush for a 20 year old - what is wrong with a
Kiddush in honor of a girl's 20th birthday? or a welcome home party? or a
graduation party? etc. etc.


From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:32:23 +0200
Subject: Kosher l'mihadrin

<<From: David Cohen <bdcohen@...> 
   Is kosher a relative term or an absolute term? In other words, when
dealing with an item or a certain practice (or whatever you want to
append the kosher adjective to) when you describe it as "kosher
lemehadrin" are you saying that that an item which is not "kosher
lemehadrin" is not kosher? Or can item be kosher, but relatively
speaking it is still unusable? >>

I have been thinking along these lines.  I forgot a cardinal rule, to
judge all people as rightous. Which brings me to one problem.

The original story was about a mashgiach who gave a hechsher on gelatin
because it was in his contract, to matir anything any other mashgiach gave a
heshcher on.
So either a) He is matir non-kosher or questionable-kosher because that's
where he gets his income from.
  or b) He accepts that gelatin is kosher, but would rather not use anthing
that uses a heter.  

To judge as rightous, we must accept b.

Also why would anybody accept a hechsher (on "kosher l'mihadrim") from a
rabbi who also matirs questionable-kosher (probably trayf), for
financial considerations ??

It must be in  fact like kosher vs. glatt kosher.  Does anbody believe that
kosher (non-glatt) is not considered kosher, or is even considered
questionable-kosher ??   (even among those who only eat glatt)
Kosher l'minhadrin means that all meat included is glatt.  And that other
hetarim, even though they be as acceptable as that of the Ram"a are also not
included in the hechsher.

So I would like to apologize to anybody I offended.  What you would tell R
Chaim Ozer is that you didn't even use the heter of the Rama. 



From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:05:17 -0400
Subject: Meir Einei Chachomim

I am trying to find information about the sefer "Meir Einei Chachomim"
and its author.  If anyone could tell me more about this sefer please
let me know.
The title page of the 1834 printing can be viewed at:
Thank you in advance for your help.

Paul W. Ginsburg
Bethesda, MD


From: Anonymous
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:34:58 +0000 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: 'Mixed' religious/secular Jewish couples

Dear All,

I'd be interested to hear of people's experiences/thoughts, on the
subject of 'mixed' religious/secular Jewish couples, and in particular
the complex issue of how to bring up children (especially outside of
Israel, where it would probably be more difficult).

I would think that even if one keeps an observant atmosphere at home,
the fact that one of the parents for example doesn't keep kosher outside
of the home, can't but impact on the children's development (in this
particular example, they would probably think keeping kosher clearly
isn't very important, I would think).

There was an interesting article about this whole issue recently in the
Israeli magazine, 'Horim V'Yeladim', which amongst other things
mentioned that often, children in such cases end up extreme in either
direction, e.g. one of the boys in such a family would for a while "jump
at every mezuzah" (quoted from memory).

>From the little bit of anecodatal evidence I've heard on this (and it
seems intuitively right), it seems that in such cases, children are in
the long-term more likely to end up non-observant than where both
parents are observant.  Does this square with people's experiences? Of
course people also leave observancy even if they grew up in an observant
family, but that may be for different reasons.

What do the Jewish sources say about such matters?

Thank you for your thoughts.
Shabbat Shalom,



From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:38:12 +0100
Subject: Moyled before rosh chodesh bentshn

Chaim Shapiro wrote:

>     What was the point of announcing the moled in shul this month
>(Sivan), when in fact, the moled for the month had already passed?  Is
>it because the announcement is still the minhag (custom)?

In fact the minhog is NOT to announce the moyled if has already 
happened. It seems that some announcers feel at a loose end and 
therefore announce it even though it has already happened, which is 

Strictly speaking, it is never necessary to ANNOUNCE the moyled. The 
requirement is to KNOW when the moyled will occur. For convenience, 
most shuls make  a verbal announcement.

Perets Mett


From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:12:47 EDT
Subject: Re: Ratners

I imagine any merchant needs to decide how a specific hashgocha or any
hashgocha for that matter impacts their profitability.

Re: social control, it's a 2-edged sword -- who's controlling whom.
Within the past year or so I've seen the following:

1 - a kosher establishment run by a non-Jew, close up because of what
might amount to a limited boycott by certain segments of a community.

2 - a 2nd kosher establishment having to change hasgochas to please the
community -- and being harassed about a female employee who wore pants.

3 - a 3rd kosher establishment which prematurely announced that several
local Rabbaim (wonderful Rabbi's, but apparently not active in the
"Kosher food business") were providing hashgocha, then a 2nd letter
signed by the 4 Rabbi's attesting to the kashruth of food prepared there
and then I was privy to find out that when this place was "inspected"
the cook was a frum Jew.  Upon follow-up visit the cook wasn't Jewish --
when the Rabbi's suggested a Mashgiach, the owner replied to the effect
that there are enough Jews around (in this establishment) and one isn't
needed.  The hashgocha still stands.  (This is, as you might guess, a
FRUM store run by folks with beards & payehs.)


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:53:03 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Tora Cycle

Art Roth posted that when the babylonian cycle started, there were few
Jews in Israel.

But - there were Jews in Israel thru the talmudic and gaonic times. They
had a 3 or 3 1/2 year cycle, and many other non babylonian laws and
customs. This community died out during (or because) of the
crusades. The newcomers to Israel from the 13 century and after brought
their babylonian practices and reset the ones that needed to be changed.


From: Immanuel Burton <iburton@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:47:00 +0100
Subject: travel info wanted: Seville, Spain

Jewish Community / Kosher Facilities in Seville, Spain.

Does anyone know if there is a Jewish community in Seville, Spain, and
whether kosher food is available?

If there is no kosher bakery in Seville, are any of the breads baked in
the non-Jewish bakeries permitted?

Any information will be gratefully received.

 Immanuel M. Burton                     |    Tel: +44 (0)20-8802 9736 x0250
 I.T. Manager                           |    Fax: +44 (0)20-8802 9774
 Better Properties Limited              | 
 129 Stamford Hill, London N16 5TW, UK  |  Email: <iburton@...>


From: <RYehoshua@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:56:21 EDT
Subject: Rental: Har Nof

Available for rent in HAR NOF, from August 7th - August 30th, a
well-equipped 3 bedroom apartment with kosher kitchen (American
appliances).  Close to bus lines.  Looking for kosher and shomer shabbat
tennant.  Contact Dvora or Avraham at 972-2-651-8439 or at

Thank You.


End of Volume 32 Issue 69