Volume 32 Number 85
                 Produced: Wed Jul  5  6:31:55 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

2 possible cases of stealing (2)
         [Chaim Shapiro, Elaine and Robert Sherer]
         [Susan Shapiro]
Cholent Shaliah
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Gas Ovens & Responsibility
         [Gershon Dubin]
Glass Shabbos candle holders
         [Chaim Manaster]
Hebrew Study aid
         [Cheryl Hall]
Houses on Fire on Shabbat
         [Tszvi Klugerman]
John Cardinal O'Connor
kosher LeMehadrin
         [Shoshana L. Boublil]
Kosher L'mehadrin
         [Gershon Dubin]
Tikun Sofrim
         [David Kaufmann]
Tzitzit Question (3)
         [Rose Landowne, Norman Bander, Freda B Birnbaum]


From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:48:55 EDT
Subject: 2 possible cases of stealing

Carl Asks, 
> > 2) Parking in a lot which is reserved for one store, when one intends
> > to shop at a different store. >>
> Isn't this trespassing?  Could the store / parking lot owner have you
> towed away?  Is there a lawyer in the house?

I know in Chicago, people park in a lot across from a pizza store (on a
different street) which has a posted sign explicitly telling people not
to park unless they are using the stores on that street.  The lot does,
on occasion tow those who leave that shopping area.  However, that pizza
shop relies on people parking in that lot, as there is no other parking
nearby.  On occasion, when the lot is towing on a regular basis, the
pizza shop posts a warning.  Outside of that, it seems, everyone parks

Chaim Shapiro

From: Elaine and Robert Sherer <ERSherer@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:43:00 EDT
Subject: Re: 2 possible cases of stealing

    There is a lawyer (and probably a few others in the house) and he's
writing this answer. Yes, it is trespassing, because the invitation to
park has clearly been extended only to customers of the store. Could the
owner have you towed away?  It depends what local laws/regulations
provide. As a practical matter, a store owner who wants to exercise such
an option will have in place an arrangement with a local (licensed)
towing operator, as part of which he probably agrees to indemnify the
tow operator against claims by the car owner if the vehicle is damaged
during towing, or if the vehicle's owner sues the tow operator. So, the
store owner needs to carry liability insurance to protect him against
any claims by the owner of the car or the towing operator, arising out
of damage to the car or the car turning out to be stolen and the two
operator having no lien protecting him from being "stiffed" on his
towing charges. It can get complicated, but I agree that the person may
be guilty of trespassing, but not stealing.


From: Susan Shapiro <SShap23859@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:20:43 EDT
Subject: Candles

<< It is true that if you do not remove the little metal disc before
placing in a new candle, the glass will crack.  Maybe having 2 metal
discs creates too much heat? >>

I believe the reason is that the second candle doesn't sit flat on the
bottom of the candle holder, and the flame is then leaning against the
glass, making it very hot.

What I now use, bought in New York, is a beautiful tear shaped glass
liquid paraffin holder with a fiberglass wick.  A friend is selling
these with the oil (paraffin) with a special nozzle so you can fill the
containers without spilling.  The wick is never consumed, and unless you
drop one of the glass containers, your only consumable is the liquid
paraffin, which, incidentally, comes in different colors.  I have used
the clear and the blue, both which look beautiful on our Shabbos table.

There is NO mess to clean up afterwards, and these are beautiful
additions to the Shabbos or Yom Tov table.



From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:41:51 EDT
Subject: Cholent Shaliah

The only issue was taking cholent from a two piece crock pot, while the
crock pot was still intact and cooking.  The individual who took it,
stirred the pot while he was looking for what he wanted to take.
Generally there are several criteria that need to be met in order for
hot food to be taken from on a fire.  This individual was careful of
none of them (at least not intentionaly).The question I asked dealt with
the cholent that remained in the pot, cooking after he stirred the pot.

Chaim Shapiro


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 01:04:13 -0400
Subject: Gas Ovens & Responsibility

From: Eric Jaron Stieglitz <ephraim@...>
<<At least in the neighborhoods I've lived in, if a single house goes up
in flames this puts many other houses (and people, as a result) in

	IIRC, the Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchaso takes this position, i.e.,
that one house on fire in a neighborhood constitutes a general pikuach



From: Chaim Manaster <hankman@...>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:59:22 -0400
Subject: Glass Shabbos candle holders

I may have some pertinent observations on this matter. My mother is
approaching 90 so I set up the Shabbos candles for her. I began using
the glass holders and found them to be a hidur to the appearance and
wind resistance. I then got lazy and rather than remove the little metal
wick holders from the bottom, which is sometimes difficult, I placed the
new candles directly on top of the previous one. The result was that one
could always easily remove the latter wick holder without any problem
whatsoever, always leaving the bottom one behind.

This went on for several months, until One Shabbos morning I came into
the dining room and discovered glass on the table and floor. I took this
for an unexplained freak accident and ignored it. Some several weeks
later, it happened again but this time I was at the table and witnessed
it. Thank G_d, no fire resulted either time. I wasn't sure whether it
was just a flaw in the glass holder of this manufacturer or just this
batch of holders or what. It then occurred to me, that perhaps my labor
saving idea was the cause of the problem. The new candle sits at a very
slight angle and the flame is thus slightly closer to the glass and not
quite centered, perhaps causing the glass to break. As the difference in
distance to the glass is small, I was reluctant to assume I found the
answer. But since I stopped placing the candles on top of the previous
wick holder, the problem has not reoccurred. Frankly, I am not sure
whether this is a game of Russian Roulette (with several hundred or
several thousand empty bullet chambers instead of just 5 or 6) and an
accident waiting to happen r"l.

Have the manufacturers of these glass holders or any Jewish communal
organization, looked into these engineering and safety issues carefully
and thoroughly? If not they certainly should. If such a minor difference
in distance to the glass can cause such a significant result, perhaps it
could happen (albeit much less frequently) even at the slightly greater
distance as well. Do the manufacturers have any specific instructions or
warnings on the use of the holders? I have never seen any. Do the
manufacturers have any studies pertaining to heat resistance of the
glass, and statistics on the frequency of breakage and any definite idea
of the causes? With hundreds of thousands (millions?) of candles being
lit every Shabbos, if this is a statistical game we are playing, we are
eventually bound to loose, even if the frequency of breakage is very
low.  This could have a very dire outcome h"v.

Some people reported placing the candles on a layer of water. Did this
induce any breakage of the glass holders?

I imagine the problem is rare, or more people would have noticed it, but
even one serious accident would be one too many!

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
Montreal, Canada


From: Cheryl Hall <hallcheryl@...>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:00:48 -0700
Subject: Hebrew Study aid

I just bought Dagesh Pro in order to build a table for my Hebrew class
vocabulary as a study guide. I want to manage the vocabulary in a
variety of ways. English list, Hebrew list, Unit/ChapterList, Part of
speech etc. I anticipated creating a table with these items as
columns. I could easily append to the list with each chapter's new
vocabulary, then as needed sort the document appropriately... ie Unit
for unit tests, English for active usage, Hebrew for passive, part of
speech to emphasize nouns or verbs etc.

However I just found out from Technical Support, that you can build a
table but you cannot sort by any criteria. Is there anyone out there who
know of some software product that can handle this task?



From: Tszvi Klugerman <Klugerman@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:26:27 EDT
Subject: Houses on Fire on Shabbat

I believe that the kitzur shulchan aruch was very permissive of
extinguishing fires on shabbat when lving amongst the nations of the
world. He appaera to be very reliant on the concept of "Mishum Eivah"
the fear of the anger or retribution of the nonjews against the jews for
causing a fire to damage or threaten their property unneccessarily.



From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:38:17 EDT
Subject: Re: John Cardinal O'Connor

As a school principal who has relied on a nearby Catholic school for
several favors (storing regents exams, gymnasium, parking spots, etc.) I
felt it appropriate to call at the school and express my condolences.

I believe a Godol like Rev Yaakov would have done the same.



From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:57:18 +0300
Subject: Re: kosher LeMehadrin

What I'm about to say will probably get people angry with me, but I
think it needs to be said.

This past Shabbat I heard an interesting D'var Torah.

Rabbi Akiva said of himself that during his earlier years, he hated
Talmidei Chachamim (Torah scholars) so much that if he had one in front
of him he would have bitten him like a donkey.

A student asks: why like a donkey and not a dog?

And Rabbi Akiva answered: b/c a dog gives a small bite.  A donkey breaks
a person's bones.  That's how much hatred he had in him.

The question then arises -- Rachel married Akiva b/c she saw that he was
Me'uleh Ve'Tzanu'a -- that he was of a high degree and modest -- and
this before he learned.  How do the two views of this complex person
(who later became one of the greatest of jewish leaders) come together?

It is this dichotomy that leads us to the answer.  Apparently, there was
a tendency at that time to be very Makpid (nit-pick/devout) on Tum'a and
Tahara (laws of purity, in this case connected to the Mikdash).  we
don't keep these laws today as we are all Temei'ei Meitim (impure b/c of
contact with the dead).  But at that time a chumrah evolved from the
opinion that Amei Aratzot (simple people who weren't experts in jewish
law) weren't reliable with regard to Tum'a -- so any Am Ha'aretz was
Tamei -- and if a person was touched by one -- he became impure as well.

The result was a kind of Ga'avah (?)  -- Talmidei Chachamim would walk
around with their figurative nose in the air b/c they were so good at
keeping the laws of purity -- and they would immediately move away if a
regular jew passed by, so that they wouldn't accidently become impure.
One can only begin to imagine how the regular jews felt.  Second class
citizens would probably have felt better.

It is this type of Talmid Chacham that Akiva hated.  When Rachel pointed
out to him that it wasn't Torah he hated, but rather what people had
done with it -- he went to learn and created a school where the common
person was just as important (see his reaction when they tried to move
Rachel aside from the 'great rabbi').

Unfortunately, I fear that the issue of Kashrut has taken on some
aspects of this historical issue.  I hope I'm wrong (and I'll probably
get flamed for daring to think so), but I think it is an important
enough issue that we should see what influence our chumrot have on the
common jew, religious or not, who suddenly finds their kitchens and
cooking "not good enough" for some other jews.

To emphasize, I'm not talking about basic kashrut, but the chumrot which
divide us.

Shoshana L. Boublil


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 01:06:37 -0400
Subject: Kosher L'mehadrin

From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
<<Most poskim prohibited the black satin scull cap because it is flat.>>

	What is your source that it is prohibited by anyone? Why would
flatness make it prohibited?



From: David Kaufmann <kaufmann@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:17:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Tikun Sofrim

>From: Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...>
>I will ask a better question - what about responsa that were misprinted
>from the original manuscripts, or that were censored when they were
>printed?  There are many such examples.  One is dealt with in an article
>I cited in a previous posting by SZ Lieman.  A second that I am aware of
>deals with the Rambam's characterization of the messiah.  In manuscripts
>of the Yad Hachazakah the Rambam states that if the purported messiah
>dies, he cannot have been the messiah.  Because of the obvious reference
>to jesus, when the Yad was printed in Christian countries, this was left

To be accurate, the Rambam says that if he is killed. But, as noted in
the translation and commentary of Rabbi Eliyahu Touger (Moznaim), the
phrase "If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed" refers to
Bar Kochba.  For the statement that follows: "he should be considered as
all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty..."
cannot apply to the founder of Christianity. The next section speaks of
the founders of Christianity and Islam directly. There's a clear
difference between a candidate for Moshiach (Bar Kochba) and a false


From: Rose Landowne <ROSELANDOW@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:11:33 EDT
Subject: Re: Tzitzit Question

What is the definition of "woven"?  There are those mesh tzitit, sold in
most places except the Lower East Side of New York., about which I've
heard that Rav Moshe didn't hold by them because they're not made of
something people would wear as clothing. (Though now that there are mesh
shirts of somewhat thicker mesh, is that still not something someone
would wear as clothing), but not because they weren't woven, and what
about those "neattzit" garments which are sold which are made of cotton

Rose Landowne

From: Norman Bander <Nbander@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:22:10 EDT
Subject: Tzitzit Question

I had the same question last year and consulted several Rabbonim.  The 
consensus was that if it was a square rain poncho then it did require 
tzitizit.  The practical solution was to take a scissors and round the square 
plastic corners. 

From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tzitzit Question

> One year in Israel I put tzitzit on my vinyl rain poncho and garnered
> glances.  Embarrassed, I asked Rabbi Israel Hess of blessed memory
> about this and he told me that only a woven garment needs tzitzit, not
> otherwise--such as leather or plastic.

Aren't there some poncho-type garments made of something woven but coated
with plastic?  They would probably be sturdier than plain plastic ones.

Oy!! (Nothing in my Girl Scout experience prepared me for this one!)

Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"


End of Volume 32 Issue 85