Volume 33 Number 05
                 Produced: Wed Aug  9  5:18:21 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chalav Akum and "New" Chumros
         [Perets Mett]
Chumrahs -- Bayn Adam l'Adam
         [Carl Singer]
Double standard
         [Edward Ehrlich]
Drug Problem in Frum Communities
         [Catherine S. Perel]
Kamatz vs Segol in Geshem
         [Russell Hendel]
Kiddush and Women
         [Yosef Stern]
Mistaken Jewish Geography
         [Yisrael Medad]
         [Ben Katz]
Origin of Saying
         [Moish Gluck]
Shabbat candles
         [Aliza Fischman]
Stringencies and leniencies
         [David Cohen]
Tisha B'av Movie Showings (3)
         [Chaim Wasserman, I. Balbin, Ada-Rivka Stein]


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:28:40 +0100
Subject: Re: Chalav Akum and "New" Chumros

  Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...> wrote:
>A recent post on this subject got my dander up.  Without going into the
>details of chalav akum/chalav hacompanies etc *again* several points
>could be made.  The first is that virtually every national kashrus
>agency relies on the heter to use non-supervised milk

I can only assume that Bill lives in the USA. However MailJewish is an
international forum so it does not really make much sense to refer to
"every national kashrus agency".  In England, I cannot think of a single
kashrus agency, national or otherwise, which will allow the use of
non-supervised milk in a manufactured product bearing its supervision,
nor will will they allow supervised caterers to use it.

Interestingly enough, Kellogg's UK now has the MK (kosher logo of the
Manchester Beth Din) on most of their cereals. Despite not having formal
supervision (use of the MK logo is not considered to be a formal
supervision) the milk used in those Kellogg's cereals which contain it
is supervised Cholov Yisroel.

Perets Mett


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:11:15 EDT
Subject: Chumrahs -- Bayn Adam l'Adam

<<  For every Ben Adam Lemakom (man to G-d) chumrah taken on, do you improve
 your, say, business ethics, as well?
 Sam Saal            <saal@...> >>

Sam brings up a most interesting line of thought -- what of chumrahs or
stingencies Ben Adam l'Adam?

I can think of only a few -- For example, I know someone who is very
machmir on calling people by their full Hebrew name.  The recent posting
re: saying shalom to others before they say it to you .... others?  Any

Carl Singer


From: Edward Ehrlich <eehrlich@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:25:29 +0300
Subject: Double standard

Kenneth H. Ryesky, Esq. <khresq@...> wrote:
>Nevertheless, certain secular and non-religious Jewish leaders and media
>are purveying the false message that those incendiary acts are
>supported, aided and abetted by frum Jewish leaders, if not the entire
>frum Jewish community.

The message in the Israeli media was that shomeir mitzvot leaders AND
secular leaders such as Mayor Olmert were not sufficiently condemning
the attack on the Ramot Conservative synagogue and other attacks against
Reform and Conservative institutions.  The major exception to this
indifference was an eloquent article by Rabbi Riskind in the Jerusalem

Ed Ehrlich <eehrlich@...>
Jerusalem, Israel


From: Catherine S. Perel <perel@...>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:52:37 -0500
Subject: Drug Problem in Frum Communities

In Vol. 32.69, (30 June 2000) Frank Silbermann <fs@...> wrote:

> On the other hand, to admit behavior within the frum community that
> the secular world _also_ strongly disparages opens the Torah community
> to outside criticism.  Thus, we tend to suppress scandals involving
> things like spousal abuse or child molestation, and severely resent
> anyone who would publicize such a problem.
> Drug abuse among our young probably falls into this latter category.

When we discuss a problem in the community in generalities, we are not
discussing one particular individual, but a serious communal issue.  To
not discuss the issue may result in the death of young Jews.  THAT seems
to me to place the Torah over the saving of a life.  This is forbidden.

   Catherne S. Perel


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:34:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Kamatz vs Segol in Geshem

Several discussants (Mike Poppers, Mat Pearlman) in Volume 32 Number 63
point out that the KAMATZ form, GASHEM does occur in Tnach.

But as I understand it (from previous issues in mj on this topic)
the issue is NOT whether the form is legitimate but rather whether

In other words maybe the prayer should be read
"You are Powerful, God, (a) you resurrect the dead,(b) you save
alot (c) you bring rain (Gashem), (d) you feed the living (e)
you resurrect the dead (f) uplift the fallen (g) heal the sick...

Thus there would be no reason to have a major pause by rain! Hence
even if the form is correct we would have a segolate form.

(The alternative reading would be based on 2 sentences:
--You are powerful, resurrect the dead and bring rain.
--You feed the living, resurrect ....

This would view RAIN as a general statement about 'nourishing the
earth' while the particulars would come afterwards)

Russell jay Hendel; Phd ASA
moderator Rashi is Simple


From: Yosef Stern <meyoz11@...>
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:04:47 EDT
Subject: Kiddush and Women

In volume 33, number 2, Shlomo Argamon writes in response to Laurie Cohen 
who wrote:
> "We started are own "minhag," whereas our daughters received their first 
> becher (silver kiddush cup) on their third Pesach.This allowed them to more 
> fully participate in the mitzvah of drinking the four cups at the Seder, and 
> then they continue to use it each Shabbos.
> (Note that they do not say their own Kiddush.)"
> Shlomo's response:
> "Why not?  Women are me`huyavot in qidush identically to men; in fact, if a 
> woman doesn't go to schul Friday night, it may be preferable for her to make 
> qidush than to rely on her husband, who fulfilled his obligation in 
> davening.  In our house, I make qidush Friday night, and my wife does so on 
> Shabbat day; when our daughters are old enough, I assume they will make 
> qidush as well."

As a matter of fact it is brought in mishnah berurah 193:5, that it is
very much preferable for women to say their own kiddush (or at least say
it along with the man who is making kiddush).

Yosef Stern


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:24:42 +0300
Subject: Mistaken Jewish Geography

Edward Ehrlich <eehrlich@...> wrote:
>The Uganda of 1903 was not the same geographical area as Uganda today
>and I believe is located in the current state of Nigeria.

I don't think so.  Nigeria is in the West,  Uganda in the East.
Except for a few border changes, it's the same area, but that offered to
Weizzmann was in the hilly area.


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:34:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Nahem

        Someone had recently requested that the "revised" Nahem prayer
found in the British edition (Rosenfeld) of kinot be transliterated.  Here
is is.  Interestingly, the standard prayer is in small letters and the newer
one in standard type, under the rubric "This version of "nahem" was
substituted by the author after the recapture of the Old City of Jerusalem,
during the Six Day war":

        Nahem Adonai Elohenu et avalay tzion ve-et avalay Yerushalayim,
ve-et hair hakedosha hamevakeh al amcha Yisrael asher hutal la-cherev, ve-al
chasidai elyon shenehergu bezadon, ve-al geboray Yisrael shemasru nafsham al
kedushat Hashem.  Tzion be-mar tivkeh, v-Yerushalayim te-tan kolah.  Lebe
lebe al chlelayhem, ma-i ma-i al chalelayhem.  Avenu shebashamayim, nekom et
nikmat iyrcha asher natata lanu le-nachalah, ve-kabetz et shearit Yisrael
me-kol ha-aratzot asher hedachta otam sham ve-yashvu bah, ve-cherem lo
yihyeh od, ka-amur "Perazot tashev Yerushalayim ma-rov adam u-vehamah
be-tochah, va-ani ehyeh lah, ve-um Adonai, chomat esh saviv, u-lechavod
ehyeh be-tochah" (Zechariah 2:8-9).  Baruch ata Adonai, me-nachem Tzion
u-boneh Yerushalayim.

I hope this goes out before Tisha B'Av, and that everyone who observes
it has a meaningful day.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph. 773-880-4187, Fax 773-880-8226


From: Moish Gluck <moish@...>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:46:40 -0400
Subject: Origin of Saying

Does anyone know the mekor (origin) of the saying "d'varim hayotzin min
halev nichnasin l'lev"?


From: Aliza Fischman <fisch.chips@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:02:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Shabbat candles

>From: David Cohen <bdcohen@...>
>Just a quick additional comment to those who wrote about the glass candles
>holders breaking and being dangerous--- we found the same problem, so we
>switched to the glass inserts that are made with "tempered" glass. Since
>then we have (for over 2 years now) not had any of the inserts break, even
>with the extra metal disc left over from the first day of Yom Tov still

I didn't know they still made them with non-tempered glass.  I have
always used the tempered glass, because that was what was in my local
kosher grocery store.  For those of you who live in or near Teaneck,
Glatt Express on Queen Anne Road carries the tempered glass neronim
holders.  As I mentioned in an earlier posting (which I think started
the whole breakage issue) I have never had one crack.  I've been married
(and using them) for 5 1/2 wonderful years, Baruch Hashem.

Hope this helps,


From: David Cohen <bdcohen@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:05:37 -0400
Subject: Stringencies and leniencies

I find it so telling that in Y. Rubin's post in #91, where he was
extolling the virtues of chumrot as a fulfillment of "kedoshim tihiyu"
(You should be holy), all the examples he gives concern ritualistic
practice. He did not mention one chumra concerning the giving of tzedaka
or business dealings etc. I think that the way one treats another is a
faster path to becoming holy.

    David I. Cohen


From: Chaim Wasserman <Chaimwass@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:32:51 EDT
Subject: Re: Tisha B'av Movie Showings

About Tisha bAv video presentations, Chaim Shapiro asks (33,02): << For
many it is a way to kill time (and then a form of entertainment?) at
best, and a hot social scene at worst.  Is this what we want kids doing
on Tisha Baav? >>

What would he have as an alternative?

Chaim Wasserman

From: I. Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:29:21 +1000
Subject: Re: Tisha B'av Movie Showings

> From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
> It has become popular in many places to show a sad documentary film on
> Tisha Baav.  Not a bad idea in principle.  It certainly has the
> potential to put people in the mood for that somber day.  But, I have to
> wonder if the idea is working.  The several showings I have gone to,
> have turned into social scenes with quite a bit of flirting.  Ask most
> singles why they are going to the showing.  If they are honest, I think
> many would be surprised by the answers.  For many it is a way to kill
> time (and then a form of entertainment?) at best, and a hot social scene
> at worst.  Is this what we want kids doing on Tisha Baav?

As Tisha B'aav has the Din of Aveilus, I believe it is forbidden to
associate in a largish gathering. Accordingly, the appropriate thing in
my view is to watch privately at a house with a video and screen an
appropriate Video. There is no doubt that there are some gut wrenching
videos and/or documentaries out there which certainly have the effect of
putting people in a correct frame of mind. Those who follow Chodosh
Assur Min Hatora will of course suggest Kinnos etc. Each house needs to
understand their children, their level, and what can and can't be

From: Ada-Rivka Stein <AdaatSBCo@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:09:30 EDT
Subject: Tisha B'av Movie Showings

Chaim Shapiro wrote:

It has become popular in many places to show a sad documentary film on
Tisha Baav.  Not a bad idea in principle.  It certainly has the
potential to put people in the mood for that somber day.  But, I have to
wonder if the idea is working.  The several showings I have gone to,
have turned into social scenes with quite a bit of flirting.  

The Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation (http://www.chofetzchaim.org/) has
been showing videos every Tisha B'Av for the past few years on such
topics as Sinas Chinom (baseless hatred), being Dan LeKaf Zechus (giving
the benefit of the doubt) - with the goal of increasing Jewish unity and
bringing Moshiach.  You might want to inquire about bringing the program
to your area.

(As far as your concern about socializing, in our community the showings
are separate for men and women.  Perhaps someone could point out the
practice of not greeting people on Tisha B'Av?)


End of Volume 33 Issue 5