Volume 33 Number 11
                 Produced: Mon Aug 14  6:39:45 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

(Black) Jacket and Hat
         [Emmanuel IFRAH]
candle lighting at 3
         [Chaim Mateh]
Humra between Man and Man
         [Shalom Carmy]
Jacket and Hat in the Pizza Shop
         [Rachel Smith]
Kiddush and Women
         [Chaim Mateh]
Parking but not buying **is** theft--you can be fined
         [Jonathan E. Schiff]
Parking but not buying **is** theft--you can be fined!
         [Feldman, Mark]
Shoes for Bentching
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Sorting HEbrew with DOS/UNIX
         [Russell Hendel]
Tisha Baav programs
What Makes Names Jewish?
         [Batya Medad]
When is shkiah?
         [Gershon Dubin]


From: Emmanuel IFRAH <eifrah@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:07:54 +0200
Subject: (Black) Jacket and Hat

I would just have two remarks regarding Carl M. Sherer's posting:

> You can argue about the jacket. You can argue about whether times have
> changed so much since the Chofetz Chaim wrote the Mishna Brura so as to
> make a hat no longer required. But you will find that many, many people
> are strict about wearing a jacket and hat for davening.

1. It is known that the Chafetz Chayim used to wear a cap and not a hat
because he considered that wearing a hat was a sign of ga'ava. Which
means that there is no need to wear a "hat" any "kova elyon" should meet
the halachic requirements.

> From the Holy City of Yerushalayim, where it was 106 degrees yesterday....

2. As far as the black color is concerned, I would like to point out (as
I am sephardi) that most mequbalim hold that one should not wear black
garments. The ideal color, rather, is white (each color corresponds to a
sephira and white is what you get if you spin a wheel with all the
colors of the rainbow...). In the old yishuv of Yerushalayim, white was
the dominant color of the traditional Jewish attire and all "olim" would
comply with the local custom... until the number of European "olim"
outcame the original yishuv and color went from white to
black. Furthermore, I am always astonished to see people wearing black
clothes and hats on Yom ha-Kipurim since all the midrashim and rishonim
are clear on the fact the original minhag was to dress in white or in
clear colors. This minhag is still kept by many sepharadim.

Emmanuel Ifrah (Paris, France)


From: Chaim Mateh <chaimm@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:58:53 +0300
Subject: Re: candle lighting at 3

In vol 33 #03, Alexander Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...> wrote:

<<The most obvious one that comes to mind is the mitzvah of lighting
Shabbos and Yom Tov candles: some communities (particularly Chassidic ones)
do indeed have it as a standard custom for girls to begin lighting at that

Does anyone know of _any_ Chassidus _other_ than Chabad that has this

Kol Tuv,


From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:34:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Humra between Man and Man

There seem to be many opportunities for most people to raise their level
of observance:

For example:
Having patience with people, tolerating idiots, showing other people that
you welcome them.

Not showing irritation, especially when the person you're confronting
isn't really at fault.

Finding a way to show appreciation for people who have helped us WITHOUT
annoying them (I mean that you don't simply say thank you a thousand
times). Showing people taht we are not taking them for granted.

Undertaking any of these things, or paying more attention to them, does
have a sensitizing impact on the personality as a whole, bec. doing them
well requires more than will power. It requires creativity, much more
creativity, in my humble opinion, than the greatest hiddush. When my
teacher and friend R. Yosef Wanefsky zt"l, passed away recently, many of
the people who offered me tanhumim spoke of how much his remembering
them by name, asking about their friends, and his patience with people,
had a civilizing effect on the entire environment he interacted with.


From: Rachel Smith <rachelms@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 07:30:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Jacket and Hat in the Pizza Shop

Carl Sherer wrote:

>The Mishna Brura (91:12) writes:
>"And in our times, one must put a hat on his >head during prayer, as he
>would go in the street, and not only with the >small hat (i.e.  yarmulka
>- C.S.) under the hat, because one would not >stand that way in front of
>important people." [Translation mine - C.S.]

Since one must put on a hat *"as he would go in the street"*, it can be
inferred that the MB would also hold that one must wear a hat in the
street, i.e. the yarmulka is not a sufficient head covering outside.



From: Chaim Mateh <chaimm@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:25:22 +0300
Subject: Re: Kiddush and Women

In vol 33#05, Yosef Stern <meyoz11@...> wrote:

<<As a matter of fact it is brought in mishnah berurah 193:5, that it is
very much preferable for women to say their own kiddush (or at least say it
along with the man who is making kiddush).>>

The Mechaber and the Mishna Brura in that siman (193) are discussing
benching after meals, NOT kiddush.  So that when the Mishna Brura says
(in s'k 5) that "and according to this [that a person who doesn't
understand the benching cannot be motzeed by someone else], the women
should bench by themselves", he is referring to benching and _not_

The Mishna Brura then brings another view that even if you don't
understand, if the motzee-er says benching in Hebrew, you can be yotzei.
He then says "and so is the minhag that women are yotsei Shmoneh Esrei
by hearing even if they don't understand at all.  And even kiddush that
is de'oraiso for women, according to all poskim, even so they are yotzei
[kiddush] by hearing."

IOW, the Mishna Brura does _not_ say that it's preferable for women to
make their own kiddush.  OTOH, in the Hallachos of kiddush, he does say
that a woman _can_ make her own kiddush.

So then we come to the eternal question of changing accepted minhagim.
IOW, even though women are _permitted_ to make their own kiddush, the
accepted minhag has been for many many years (centuries, millenia <G>?)
that they are yotzei by their husband's kiddush.  If so, can we, may we,
should we, change this minhag?  And for what reason would/should we
change the minhag?

Kol Tuv,


From: Jonathan E. Schiff <Jschiff139@...>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:14:42 EDT
Subject: Re: Parking but not buying **is** theft--you can be fined

<< Parking but not buying **is** theft--you can be fined! >>

I am curious is "theft" as a distinct wrong defined anywhere.
Obviously, I wrote from the perspective of Anglo-American law which
follows its own traditions.  I felt a bit uncomfortable writing on the
topic.  Common law only defined an offense as theft (which was a felony
and hence a capital crime) when some material object was physically
removed from its location by one without lawful right the property of
another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of possession.
Later, such non-material "thefts" as theft of service and crimes such as
embezzlement which may be accomplished by means of accounting entries,
were added.

I present this to distinguish the concept of "theft" from the more
general "wrong" Does Jewish law parse the subject this way?  Or is the
term theft used interchangably with wrong.?  And am I making any sense?

Jonathan E. Schiff

From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:07:31 -0400 
Subject: RE: Parking but not buying **is** theft--you can be fined!

> From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
> Jonathan Schiff (V32n70) responds about the status of parking in a
> parking lot while doing business in another store.
> This **is** theft under Jewish law. However it is a special type of
> theft: It is theft where the other party does not [lose]! Most people
> think there is no payment for such a theft. Correct(almost). But
> if you continually do it you can be fined.
> The exact citations occur in Rambam Thefts and Losses 3:6-9
> >>
> 9)A person who lives (eg parks) in someone elses lot without his
> knowledge: Then if the owner does not normally charge then this
> person need not pay EVEN if he would otherwise pay(parking meters)
> because this is a case of THIS PERSON BENEFITED WHILE THE OTHER
> 6) A person who took someone elses ox to carry a bundle and returns
> the animal intack to the owner...EVEN THOUGH HE HAS VIOLATED A
> NEGATIVE PROHIBITION (of theft) nevertheless he does not pay because
> >>

I have not looked up the commentaries on the Rambam, but it seems to me
this interpretation of the Rambam is incorrect.  In 3:6 the person
*taking* the ox has clearly *stolen* the ox, but since he returns the ox
("v'heishiv et ha'gzeilah asher gazal") he has complied with the
requirements required of a thief; if he does this continually, the
Rabbis fined him to discourage such behavior.  In 3:9, the person living
on the property has not *taken* the property (he has not done a kinyan
on it; land cannot be stolen [karka eina nigzelet]) and has not
committed theft.  The issue is merely whether such a person should pay
rent.  See Bava Kama 20a-b.

I am also not sure whether the case of store parking falls under 3:9.
While a store may not charge customers for using the lot, the store is
providing free parking in order to induce customers to shop in the
store.  The store owner considers this cost like the cost of
advertising, etc.  The customer eventually pays in the form of higher
prices on the goods he buys.  If so, perhaps this case could be compared
to a parking lot where there is a price charged.

Kol tuv,


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 08:54:41 -0400 
Subject: Shoes for Bentching

Carl Sherer writes:

"Although I don't have the source handy, it is the opinion of many poskim
that the laws of Tfilla also apply to Birkas HaMazon.  Therefore, many
people are also strict to wear a hat (and a jacket) for Birkas HaMazon."

I recently was in the presence of a person who is very medakdek
(conscientious) about wearing a hat and jacket for Birkas MaMazon.  I
noticed that he was, however, not wearing shoes while he bentched.  I
asked him about this, and he gave the following explanation:

The Halacha (law) is to dress as one would while sitting before a king
or important person.  Hence, the hat and jacket.  However, when sitting
at a table, the king could not see one's feet, so whether or not one
wears shoes would not be known to the king, and hence it does not

Has anyone else heard this reasoning?

-- Andy Goldfinger


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sorting HEbrew with DOS/UNIX

Cheryl Hall asks how to sort Tables with Hebrew fonts.
Aliza responds that you can sort using Excel.

Additionally I point out that most operating systems allow
sorts. For example if you are using Windows 95, 98 or NT
then from a dos prompt you can sort using the following command

C:>sort /+2 Table.txt > TableSrt.txt

This command sorts Table.txt by the second column "2" and stores
the new table in TableSrt.txt (You must make sure the TO file is
different than the FROM file). Unix has similar commands.

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA
Moderator Rashi is Simple
http://www.RashiYomi.Com/------NEW AND REVISED
Surfing the Talmudic Seas


From: Chaim <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 18:38:10 EDT
Subject: Tisha Baav programs

Several individuals responded to part of my question regarding Tisha
Baav movie showings.  Most seemed to feel, as I do, that flirting on
that day is completely inappropriate.  Most, however did not address the
second half of my question; are these movie showings a form of
entertainment, and thus prohibited on Tisha Baav?  If individuals are
going to be moved to Tshuvah, that would be one thing.  But what of
those who are going to see a movie, or at best kill time.  Is that not a
form of entertainment itself?  I will never forget hearing an individual
ask a Rav if it is permissible to rent a sad movie, such as "Terms of
Endearment" on Tisha Baav because it would only depress him!

One poster asked what I would prefer people do.  The answer is simple.
An annotated Kinnos session puts people in the Tisha Baav mood, and I
think, hardly qualifies as any form of entertainment.  Furthermore, it
is better IMHO, for an individual to sleep Tisha Baav away rather than
seek out alternative forms of entertainment.



From: Batya Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 08:27:53 +0300
Subject: What Makes Names Jewish?

> I was wondering what makes a name jewish? If a name did not come from
> Tanach what makes it jewish? 

Important to remember that not all the names in the Tanach are Jewish.
In addition, some of the Jewish ones have negative meanings, like
Nimrod.  If one is searching the Tanach for names, do a little research

Batya Medad
mother of Chana Dvora, Tzruya, She'era, Nedayva and Aviya


From: Gershon Dubin <gdubin@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:16:34 -0400
Subject: When is shkiah?

From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
<<Shkiah (sunset) is defined as the local time when the sun sinks below
the horizon.  However, a person flying in an airplane will still see the
sun at this time, since his elevation allows him to see beyond the "zero
altitude" horizon.  Has shkiah occurred for him at this time, or must he
wait until the sun sinks below his horizon?>>

	The poskim who address this generally say that shkia is defined as
shkia on the ground under the plane.



End of Volume 33 Issue 11