Volume 33 Number 18
                 Produced: Tue Aug 22 17:33:20 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Asking a non-Jew to do work on Shabbat
         [Ari Kahn]
Bentching and One's State of Dress
         [Yisrael Medad]
Jacket and Hat in the Pizza Shop
         [Gershon Dubin]
         [Jonathan E. Schiff]
kashering stoves
         [Arlene Mathes-Scharf]
Kippa AND Hat ... Shoes
         [Daniel M Wells]
Rabbi Chanoch Dov Padwa zatsal
         [Perets Mett]
Saying Kadish in unison
         [Carl Singer]
When is shkiah?
         [Zev Sero]


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:46:44 +0300
Subject: Re: Asking a non-Jew to do work on Shabbat

Regarding the prohibition of asking a non-Jew to do work on Shabbat a
few points need to be considered: (for a review of the sources see
Shmirat Shabbat Kihilchata chapter 30 footnote 2)

The first question is the source of the prohibition see Rashi Exodus
12:16 who apparently opines that the status of the prohibition is from
the Torah see Beit Yosef 244 in the name of the smag. However see the
Chofetz Chaim in Shaar Zion 243:7 who brings overwhelming opinions that
the law is rabbinic.

The Rambam (Shabbat 6:1) writes the reason for the prohibition - is that
Shabbat should not be "light" in our eyes - lest we will come to

Rashi (Avoda Zara 15a) says the source for the prohibition is the Law
taught by Isaiah (58:13) that certain things can not be spoken on

Rashi (Shabbat 153a) says the reason is that the non-Jew becomes an
agent for the Jew.

Therefore if a Jew asked a non Jew on Shabbat to do work on Shabbat it
is prohibited for all the above reasons If a Jew asked a non-Jew on
Shabbat to do something after Shabbat it is prohibited according to
Rashi (Avoda Zara) If a Jew asked a non-Jew before Shabbat to do work on
Shabbat it is prohibited according to Rashi (Shabbat) and Rambam

Therefore the cab case does not seem to me to be all that simple. If you
ask a cab company to have a cab at your door the second Shabbat is over:
" this is in effect asking for work to be done on Shabbat " though some
poskim have opined that you are not asking for any work - as far as you
are concerned the non-Jewish driver can spend all of Shabbat camped
outside your door.  Rav Weiss prohibits the use of a cab in this case
until Kdi Sheyaasu - the amount of time it would have taken to get there
assuming he left after Shabbat (Minachat Yitzchak 6:25 Maor Hashabbbat
page 385)

The idea of hinting the instruction instead of stating it not relevant
to the discussion because that is only based on the assumption that the
prohibition is exclusively based on inappropriate speaking.

Rav Menashe Klien has an interesting leniency, he states that when
calculating the end of Shabbat for the non-Jew an earlier time-" namely
shkia (sunset) should be used. However I am unaware of any poskim who
agreed with him on this point.

This problem may also be extended to getting on a bus which began its
route on Shabbat - which is possible in Israel in a bus originating in
Tel Aviv which goes past Bnie Brak. A Jewish or non-Jewish driver
creates its own set of problems. (Maor Hashabbbat page 383-4)

Or a bus driven by a non-Jew driven on a route designed to deal with the
after Shabbat traffic in Boro Park (the case which Menashe Klien deals
with).  Therefore in the case of a cab needed immediately after Shabbat
I would suggest consulting your L.O.R. before being lenient on your own.

Rabbi Ari Kahn


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:44:32 +0300
Subject: Bentching and One's State of Dress

Re: Andy Goldfinger's posting on: Shoes for Bentching

>I noticed that he was, however, not wearing shoes while he bentched.  I
>asked him about this, and he gave the following explanation:

>The Halacha (law) is to dress as one would while sitting before a king
>or important person.  Hence, the hat and jacket.  However, when sitting
>at a table, the king could not see one's feet, so whether or not one
>wears shoes would not be known to the king, and hence it does not matter.

>Has anyone else heard this reasoning?

No, but it seems quite ingenious.
Next, that logic could allow one to sit in one's underwear, or worse.
(Here in Israel, newsreaders on TV have been know to wear jacket & tie above
and jeans below, but who knows.


From: Gershon Dubin <gdubin@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:24:14 -0400
Subject: Jacket and Hat in the Pizza Shop

>From: Rachel Smith <rachelms@...>
<<Since one must put on a hat *"as he would go in the street"*, it can be
inferred that the MB would also hold that one must wear a hat in the
street, i.e. the yarmulka is not a sufficient head covering outside.>>

	If x implies y,  it does not follow that y implies x.

	If you have to wear a hat "as he would go in the street" when
you daven, then it could just as logically imply that if you don't wear
a hat in the street you don't have to wear one for davening.



From: Jonathan E. Schiff <Jschiff139@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:54:30 EDT
Subject: Re: Kaddish

<< The height of annoyance came from an acquaintance of mine
 who complained I said Kaddish too slowly, and I refused to give in to
 it. >>

I guess I have been fortunate.  The synagogues that I have frequented
have always paced Kaddish to the slowest mourner.  That could become
excruciatingly slow when guests unfamiliar with the prayers would come
to say the Kaddish.  It seems to me it's a matter of courtesy and common
decency to slow down and assist, if necessary, the mourner on such an

Jonathan E. Schiff


From: Arlene Mathes-Scharf <ajms@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:55:11 -0400
Subject: kashering stoves

I have a a link to an  NJOP article on Kashering at 

Arlene Mathes-Scharf    |
<ajms@...>        | The Internet's Premier Independent Kashrut
http://www.kashrut.com/ |             Information Source


From: Daniel M Wells <wells@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:45:48 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Kippa AND Hat ... Shoes

Apparently there is a mention in Kabbala that Avoda (tefila, brachot
etc) requires TWO head coverings. That's why one can see many
chassidishe men (inc Chabad) who when making a brocha on food etc and
not dressed appropriately with a hat, will put their arm over the kippa
(how effective that is, is another matter).

Presumably for the same reason the MB holds that the head should be
covered with the Tallit during the Amida.

There was a custom many years ago that people (Jews as well as Goyim)
would not exit their house without putting on a hat and coat (over the
jacket) and thus even today one finds many Hatanim about be married, led
out to the Chuppa in their hat and (rain)coat

That a person invited to a 'Royal' gathering would sit down and remove
his shoes believing that that the 'Malchut' would not notice or hear
about it is rather hard to take at face value - Kal VeHomer opposite
Melech HaMelachim.

Prayer should be in an attire that is considered 'Mechubad' (as defined
according to the customs of the national Malchut - and don't take Israel
as an example!) NOT because the Almighty needs it, rather as the saying
goes 'clothes make the man', a person dressed appropriately will feel
'Mechubad' and generally will therefore daven more sincerely.

*                            Daniel M. Wells                             *
* +972 3  531-8240                Work Sun-Thu  1000-1800 IT (+2/+3 GMT) *
* +972 3  531-8240 or 534-7601    Fax at Work                            *
* mailto:<wells@...>     email                                  *
* http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~wells webpage                                * 


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:45:40 +0100
Subject: Rabbi Chanoch Dov Padwa zatsal

London Jewry is mourning the loss of Rabbi Chanoch Dov Padwa zatsal, who
was niftar on Wednesday 15 Av, close after the petiro of the Bobover
Rebbe and the Slonimer Rebbe. He was taken to Yerusholayim where he was
buried on Har Hamenuchos on Thursday morning. Rabbi Padwa served as the
Av Beis Din of the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations (London) for a
period of 45 years. He was a renowned world-class Poiseik, and many of
his tshuvos (responsa) are collected in three volumes of Cheishev

The lvayo in London (on Wednesday evening) was attended by about two
thousand people, although many were unable to attend because they were
on vacation. Hespeidim were said by his son-in-law, Dayan Sholom
Friedman, by his sons, and by Rabbi D Frand, President (Rosh Hakohol) of
UOHC The following morning he was taken to Kolel Shomrei Hachomos (near
Meoh Sh'orim) where further hespeidim were held. The lvayo then went on
foot the whole way to Har Ham'nuchos, which they reached at about 2
pm. On its way to the burial plot the mito (bier) stopped briefly at the
kvorim of the Belzer Rov and the Tshebiner Rov zy"o, both of whom Rav
Padwa had been very close to.

Rabi Padwa was born in Galicia on 20 Av 5668 (1908). With the outbreak
of the First World War his family, in common with many others who found
themselves on the front lines, moved to Vienna, the imperial capital of
the Austro-Hungarian Empire, of which Galicia was part. After attending
various yeshivos he became known as an outstanding scholar. When,
following the Anschluss, life in Nazi-ruled Austria became untenable for
Jews, he was fortunate to escape to Jerusalem where he was soon
appointed as a Dayan within the Eido Chareidis. He became close to the
gedoilim of yesteryear, including Rav Dushinsky, the Belzer Rov and
later the Tshebiner Rov.  In 5715 (1955) the latter recommended him as a
candidate for the post of Av Beis Din of the UOHC in London, and he was
subsequently appointed to this position. Under his spiritual leadership
the UOHC has grown into a large and diverse body comprising more than 60
shuls and shtiblekh including Chasidim (of all shades from Satmar to
Lubavitch, from Belz to Bobov) Mithnagdim and Sphardim.

Amongst his halachic rulings he paskened that eating a meal on an
aeroplane did not constitute a kviuth seudo, so that a mezonos roll
eaten with such a meal did not require n'tilas yodayim and hamoitsi.
(If one eats a mezonos roll or sandwich as part of a meal, n'tilas
yodayim and hamoitsi would apply.) In consequence of this ruling, the
kosher airline meals - available on most flights out of London -
supervised by the kashrus organization of UOHC (known by its brand name
Kedassia) contain a mezonos roll.

Rabbi Padwa's firm leadership of the Beis Din (until illness prevented
his full participation in the past couple of years) had an impact way
beyond the boundaries of UOHC. His opinion was sought on all religious
matters affecting Anglo-Jewry, notably in issues involving Shechita and

Perets Mett


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:41:39 EDT
Subject: Saying Kadish in unison

<< Public reminders to say Kaddish together seem to have minimal and
 temporary effect.  Because my voice is pretty loud, I don't seem to
 have a hard time getting my Kaddish answered. >>

  ... does your being loud and getting "your" Kaddish answered, impact
others and their getting 'their" Kaddish answered?

There are a number of minhagim (meaning age old traditions) and
accomodations (meaning new age ideas) regarding saying kadish in unison,
or at least in a manner that leaves all involved feeling somewhat

Some Sefardi shules have only one person say Kaddish on behalf of all
(this is, I believe Minhag)

Other shules, have all those saying Kaddish gather together at the front
of the shule to say it in unison.

Others have the Rabbi or the Gabbi "lead" -- that is set the pace for --

As with most things, if people want to make it work out, they'll find a
reasonable solution, if people want to be "me first" or "me only" then
they'll succeed in ignoring their fellow daveners.

Another issue is for those who are answering -- I've made it my practice
to answer to the person closet to me regardless if whether he's loud or
soft -- at times I've made my answer loud to assure that, if he's slow,
that davening does not continue until he's finished -- recently one of
our congregants who due to a medical condition speaks in a horse whisper
has been saying Kaddish -- I'm please to say that others who are saying
kaddish, rather than trying to be loud, are trying to listen and keep
pace with him.

Kol Tov
Carl Singer


From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 02:35:21 -0400
Subject: Re: When is shkiah?

<snip>   ... one should bring in Shabbos when the sun sets at the level
of the treetops in ones own area, <snip>

To clarify: This does not mean "when the sun is in line with the tops of
the trees, to the observe's west."  That could be rather early, and
would depend a great deal on your distance from the tree.  Besides, if I
can directly observe the sun, what difference if it appears to be at
tree-top level?

Rather, I believe "Tlu Shraga Kad Simsha beResh Dikla (if I remember the
phrase accurately from the Gemara) means "light the Sabbath lamps when
the tops of the palm-trees are still in the sun's light (even though the
base of the tree is already in the shade.)"

[In Brooklyn, that probably translates to the upper floors of the
neighboring apartment houses.]

The principle seems to be that shkiah has not occurred until objects
tall enough to have unobstructed exposure to the horizon are entirely in
the earth's shadow.  But, from the context of the Gemara, this
formulation is offered as a practical guideline with a good safety
margin; there is no indication how much additional time elapses before
the true legal shkiah occurs.

The converse question is how to Daven Kevasikin at sunrise on a plane,
so that Krias Shma is said before sunrise, and Tephilla after.  I would
guess that "mishyakkir" is earlier at 2 miles elevation than on the
ground, but sunrise has not occurred until the face of the earth below
is directly illuminated (as in "Hameir Laaratz").

Yaakov Gross


End of Volume 33 Issue 18