Volume 33 Number 43
                 Produced: Mon Sep  4 10:07:04 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Children in Schule
         [Yisrael Medad]
Cognac (3)
         [Bill Bernstein, Percy Mett, Eli Linas]
Garelick Milk (3)
         [Cynthia Tenen, Rabbi Halbfinger, <ERSherer@...>]
Jewish Book for a Russian Bar Mitzvah Boy/Bat Mitzvah Girl
         [Sam Gamoran]
Kafrisin again
         [Noyekh Miller]
A Mesorah of Kashruth - Chalav Yisroel & Glatt Kosher
         [Carl Singer]
Pesach in the Spring
         [Steven White]
Prayer in a Non Orthodox synagogue
         [Jonathan Shaffer]
Prayer with non-Jews
         [David Schiffmann]
Who are today's gedolim?
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
Request: Musically rich Rosh HaShana davenning in Tel Aviv, Yaffo
         [Orna Lenchner]


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:08:55 +0300
Subject: Children in Schule

Further to my previous posting, allow me to elaborate on Halachic
considerations of permitting children to be present in Schule:

the Chofetz Chaim notes (Mishnah Brurah on Siman 124, note 28) on the
phrase "and he should instruct his children to answer Amen" that "as for
the most little ones that run back and forth in schule in a game it is
better not to bring them because it will become a habit [in their later
life] and it bothers the rest of the congregation in their prayers.  and
the father that does bring them to schule should take care to assure
that their clothes and shoes are clean"

and in another citation (MB on 98, note 3): on the phrase of the Rama
that one should not kiss his children in schule -

"the Shelah vehemently opposed those who brought their kids to schule.
and by 'little one' he means those who haven't reached the age of
education/ instruction because they dance and play in schule and violate
the sanctity of the synagogue and get everyone mixed up and when they
get older they won't break free from their bad habit in their youth to
act wildly [l'histagei'a] and to despise the sanctity of the
synagogue...but when they reach educationable age, for sure they should
be brought to schule to learn how to sit in awe and respect and he must
not be allowed to get up and leave and he should be taught to answer
Amen to the Kaddish and respond to the Kedusha [and he goes on to refer
to a citation from Tana B'vei Eliyahu which criticises fathers who
permits his son to utter silly replies to prayers].


From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 08:38:27 -0500
Subject: re: Cognac

Steven White writes about cognac and makes some factual errors that
should be addressed.

First, a fortified wine is a wine that has had brandy added to it and
then aged.  Sherry, Port, and Madeira (can you get kosher madeira??) are
all fortified wines and i would assume their brocho is hagafen

Second: cognac is a brandy and a distilled spirit, i.e. you take a
fermented liquid (in this case wine) and then distill it.  I would
assume the fact that it has fundamentally changed character from being a
wine would make its brocho shehakol.

Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN

From: Percy Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:58:38 +0100
Subject: Re: Cognac

A fortified wine is a wine (i.e. a non-distilled fermentation product of
grape juice) to which (strong) alcohol has been added. A major reason
for doing this is to arrest the fermentation process before all the
natural sugar is converted. This is a means of producing naturally sweet
wines without any added sugar.

The amount of added alcohol is small compared to the volume of wine
which remains the main constituent. The brokho is therefore boirei pri

When wine is distilled into brandy, cognac or whatever other name the
product might have, the wine is evaporated so that the original product
is no longer present. Ponim chadoshos bo-u l'khan. The brandy so
produced is not wine; it is a derived product and its b'rokho becomes

The fact that its only constituent is wine is no longer relevant.  If
goes sour to the extent that most people would not drink it the brokho
becomes shehakol. The borei pri hagofen is lost.

Perets Mett

From: Eli Linas <linaseli@...>
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:18:06 +0300
Subject: Re: Cognac

I looked this question up in the work on Brachos, "Zos HaBrachah," third
edition (5754). In the list on specific foods in the back, under brandy,
he states that is is shehakol. In the ha'ara (69), he writes: "On
liquers...  the bracha is v'dai shehakol, for they are not made from
wine at all.  However, on authentic cognac, there is a question, the
Chazon Ish ruling it is borei pri hagefen, since it is distilled from
wine. However, the Caf HaChaim writes that it is shehakol, and this is
the custom (Yalkut Yosef)."

Eli Linas 


From: Cynthia Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 22:28:46 -0400
Subject: Garelick Milk

Mike Gerver is right -- I just checked at the local store, and yes, the 
Vaad's hechsher is back on Garelick milk.  --Just goes to show you how 
persistent a reputation can be; once they lost it five years ago, I never 
checked again.

--Cynthia Tenen
Meru Foundation   http://www.meru.org   <meru1@...>

From: Rabbi Halbfinger <Rashalb@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:19:00 EDT
Subject: Garelick Milk

For your information, Garelick milk is now certified kosher by the Vaad
Harabonim of New England.  We removed the hashgacha when the company
began to use shark oil vitamins, which were considered natural.  They
have reverted to a kosher vitamin.  Hence the milk is now certified
kosher and bears the KVH emblem.

Rabbi Halbfinger - Director of the Vaad Harabonim

From: <ERSherer@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:28:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Garelick Milk

    Thank you for the correction. I did not realize that they had
actually switched from the Vitamin A to shark liver oil before running
their ad. My knowledge of this began with Guerlick's ad.


From: Sam Gamoran <gamoran@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:48:26 +0300
Subject: Jewish Book for a Russian Bar Mitzvah Boy/Bat Mitzvah Girl

One of my subordinates just told me that his son's Bar Mitzvah is this
Thursday - and his daughter's Bat Mitzvah is in a few months.  I would
like to get them gifts of books on their age level about Judaism.  The
family is quite assimilated.

Can anyone recommend an appropriate title(s) in Russian - and where to
purchase in Israel?


From: Noyekh Miller <nmiller@...>
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:57:54 -0400
Subject: Kafrisin again

I thank Jonathan Baker for his reply.  My original query centered around
the fact that Rashi himself defines kafrisin as caper-bush in one place
but elsewhere calls yayin kafrisin Cypriot wine.  The fact that he
himself was a wine grower add shall we say zest to the matter.  The
question remains: are there commentaries on this apparent inconsistency?

Let me add a second question: is there anywhere in the post-Rashi
literature a discussion of the nature of yayin kafrisin?

Noyekh Miller


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:42:42 EDT
Subject: A Mesorah of Kashruth - Chalav Yisroel & Glatt Kosher

I've heard many non-food issues discussed vis a vis Mesorah -- for
example in regards to certain practices attributed to various
generations of the Soloveichik family.

Many food discussions involve minhag (for example, not eating matzoh
during from Purim 'til Pesach, etc.)

By extension, I've always felt that conceptually both Chalav Yisroel and
Glatt Kosher falls into a similar construct -- involving both metziah &
mesorah -- let me explain.

Unless there is some change in the metziah (physical circumstances) I
see an important positive element in following my parent's mesorah re:
kashruth.  That can be translated into one of two statements depending
on your bias: "If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me."
or "If they wouldn't eat it, I won't either."

With general kashruth -- take for example the ubiquitous can of peas
(before the availability of national certification) For our parent's
generation, "Peas, salt & water" -- vos can zahn treif mit peas,
 salt & water -- what could be non kosher with (about) peas, .... or
salt, or water.  Today we know about retorts, additives, production of
multiple products on the same equipment, etc.  In essence our knowledge
re: the metziah has changed.  A can of peas without a hechsher (if you
can even find one!) is not used in favor of the myriad brands with a

With Chalav Yisroel -- the metzia hasn't changed, if anything
(government) supervision, etc. has improved -- except for the advent of
exotic additives - so I see no reason to go down to using Chalav Yisroel
(although I do buy it for guests, etc.)

With Glatt Kosher -- there no longer seems to be a reliable / available
/ convenient supply chain for kosher (but not Glatt) meat -- the metziah
has changed, to where Glatt Kosher is essentially synonymous with
"reliable" kosher, I personnally know of not even a single organization
that supplies (non-Glatt) kosher meat that anyone in the Orthodox
community uses (correct me if I'm wrong.)  The few major suppliers of
meat that is kosher but not glatt seem to target the non-Orthodox, or
non-Jewish consumer.  That said, I buy Glatt Kosher even though my
parents didn't need to -- but again only because of the change in the

The abstract discussions that focus on the Metzia of Chalav Yisroel,
etc., (pigs milk, reliability of government supervision, etc.)  need to
be augmented by an understanding of the Mesorah.

Good Shabbos
Carl Singer


From: Steven White <StevenJ81@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:05:46 EDT
Subject: Pesach in the Spring

Can anyone provide a source for just what constitutes "falling out in
the spring" halachically for Pesach?

Intuitively, it would make sense that Pesach must fall out on the first
"15th of a month" that follows the spring equinox.  But of course today,
in two out of each nineteen years, that is no longer true.  Are we
actually in violation?

I ask because there could potentially be other ways to define this, such
as (a) any day of Pesach must fall out on or after the equinox (an early
definition), or (b) Pesach must start before the middle of Spring (a
late definition), or (c) Pesach must start before the summer solstice
(probably the latest definition).

I assume that (c) is not a halachically valid definition.  But we are
current operating on something resembling (b) now, and if you calculate
the calendar back to Hillel II, you see that occasionally (a) had to be
practiced for a while.

Does anyone have a good source?

Steven White


From: Jonathan Shaffer <Jshaffer@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:08:24 -0400 
Subject: Prayer in a Non Orthodox synagogue

	A recent question about prayer with non-Jews reminded me of a
related issue: prayer in a non Orthodox synagogue. We live within
walking distance of an orthodox and a conservative synagogue and have
had orthodox guests who walked to the conservative synagogue for a
simcha on Shabbos after davening at our home first. Is there any halacha
addressing conduct in a non Orthodox synagogue (i.e. should one stand
with everyone else; respond to Kaddish, etc)?

[There are those opinions that do not permit going to a non-orthodox
synagogue even if not actually davenning there. The above question is
meaningless if you follow those opinions. So please only respond
according to the opinions that one may go there for a Simcha if one
davens beforehand. If you get there before their tefillah is completed,
how should one behave. Mod.]


From: David Schiffmann <das1002@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 17:10:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: re: Prayer with non-Jews

This reminds me of a related question. I read recently in 'Halachah for
the business traveller', or a similarly titled booklet (I can't remember
the author off-hand), that one cannot pray in a non-denominational
prayer hall of the sort one might find in an airport; if I remember
correctly, it said this is the view of all the poskim.

I was wondering, what is the origin for this prohibition?

Shabbat Shalom,
David Schiffmann


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:10:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Who are today's gedolim?

Around the Shabbos table today, the question came up, WHO are today's
gedolim (now that Rav Moshe Feinstein ztl and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach
ztl are gone)?  One or two names were mentioned but they seemed kind of
young and not established enough yet.  So I said I'd post a query to
Mail-Jewish and see if anything came up.

This isn't meant to be a contest or a debate about who's greater.  I
just wanted a sense of who are the generally acknowledged leaders of the

If I were more knowledgeable, I might have an answer to this, but I'm
not, so I don't, and any help will be appreciated.

Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>


From: Orna Lenchner <METAORNA@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:04:57 EDT
Subject: Request: Musically rich Rosh HaShana davenning in Tel Aviv, Yaffo


I am an Israeli / American coming home for the holidays to be with my
ailing parents in Tel Aviv.

I am looking for a lebidick, deep, musically rich Rosh HaShana davenning
in Tel Aviv, Yaffo or close communities. Open to different service
options.  Braslav? Carlebach? amazing chazan anywhere?

Shavua Tov

Ariel (aka Orna LEnchner) 


End of Volume 33 Issue 43