Volume 33 Number 74
                 Produced: Sun Nov  5 22:07:22 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Artscroll Gemorah
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Artscroll Shas
         [Beth and David Cohen]
Best Kosher
         [Chaim Shapiro]
         [I.H Fox]
Degel Machaneh Ephraim  - followers
         [Paul Ginsburg]
Full Defective spellings
         [Russell Hendel]
Halachically Pregnant
         [Yehonoson Rubin]
Halachicha & Pregnancy (Vol. 33, #68)
         [Alexis Rosoff]
Kashrut of chewing gum
         [Warren Burstein]
Kashrut Question on hot water system
         [Carl Singer]
A Mesorah of Kashruth - Chalav Yisroel & Glatt Kosher
         [Carl Singer]
Seeking cheap Hebrew word processor
         [Carl Singer]
Towels and tsitsit
         [Barry S Bank]
Weight of Klei Kodesh
         [Anthony L. (Tony) Zak]


From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:17:55 EST
Subject: Artscroll Gemorah

> I think my disagreement was with the responsibility.  I feel that
> people who wish to learn on a certain level need to find that own
> level.  The proliferation of Artscroll Gemorah's in bookstores is not
> the fault or responsibility of the owners - they are selling items
> that are profitable, and that includes Artscrolls.


I never claimed it was.  However, the FACT that the bookstore finds only
Artscroll profitable, speaks volumes about the attitudes (positive or
negative) toward the use of Artscroll gemorahs.

And to Carl, join the party!  It may not be popular to agree with me.
That is fine. Actually, the fact that people may not agree with me is
the very point!  I try to highlight issues that may be controversial,
issues that might arise some emotions, but I believe these discussions,
can help improve us as Torah Jews.

Chaim Shapiro


From: Beth and David Cohen <bdcohen@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:44:35 -0500
Subject: Artscroll Shas

I have remained on the sidelines of this debate for awhile but I feel
that I have to weigh in against the elitist attitude from some of my
chaveirim on this list, whose ability in learning and their erudition
far surpasses mine.

    That being said, I for one, who spent years at Yeshiva when no
Artscroll existed cannot fathom the "problem". First, labeling Rashi a
"Rishon" (which he was) in no way makes his peyrush (commentary) on Shas
any less relevant to the discussion. Rashi is primarily (not
exclusively) an explanation of the p'shat, the basic meaning of the
Gemora. As every Rebbe I ever had said, One cannot understand the gemara
without Rashi. He basically "opened up" the gemara. On a much lesser
scale, Artscroll accomplishes the same thing. But Rashi is not the end
of the study of a sugya, he is the beginning, a starting point. So is
the perusal of a sugya in the Artscroll, a means to start. No serious
learning ends with Rashi, nor should one fault Artscroll to be a
beginning. Anyone who thinks he's done after reading one perush, whether
it's Artscroll or something else is fooling himself. That's not
Artscroll's fault, just as it's not Rashi's.

    It is also claimed that Artscroll discourages chavrusa learning or
learning with a Rebbe. I'd like to see empirical data on that before
someone makes his own intuitive biased claim. I would speculate (and my
speculation is no more authoritative than others) that those who would
study in chavruta will do so with or without Artscroll, and those that
can't, will at least have the availability of Artscroll's scholarship.

    Finally, I take issue with Artscroll being "easy". It's only easier
because it's written in English rather than Gemara language. Anyone who
claims they can whip right through some of the complicated notes in
difficult sugyot in the Artscroll are fooling themselves. And they also
point to sources that one might overlook.

    Artscroll Shas is not the end all and be all of gemara study. But it
can be a useful addition. Remember, crutches are needed until your
strong enough to run on your own. Where would the person with a broken
leg be without them

   David I. Cohen


From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:53:17 EST
Subject: Best Kosher

> The real problem that some people I have talked to have with Best's
> Kosher/Sinai 48 is that the owner is Sara Lee, and therefore no longer
> a jewish ownership. That is why there has been problem in trying to
> obtain Chicago Rabbinical Council (CRC) supervision,

I do believe the CRC did not recommend Best/Sinai prior to the change in

      Chaim Shapiro


From: I.H Fox <ilan_25@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:06:21 GMT
Subject: Conversion

Does anyone know of a posek that had a different view for a conservative 
conversion than a reform one? I saw this idea in a short essay that also 
added that the reason for this was that some of the Conservative leaders 
were shomrey mitvot. He also added that those conversions are not valid but 
there is some kind of meaning to this procedure. I was very surprised to see 


From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:44:42 -0500 
Subject: Degel Machaneh Ephraim  - followers

Whereas the Degel Machaneh Ephraim (R. Moshe Chaim Ephraim of Sudilov)
did not encourage a following, which Chassidic group most closely
follows his teachings and could be considered to carry on his "dynasty"?

Paul Ginsburg


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:31:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: Full Defective spellings

Ben Katz continues the thread on full-defective spellings in v33n68
He writes

>I believe Dr. Hendel's distinction is interesting but irrelevant.  No
>amount of cleverness can cover up the fact that Migdol (as is true of
>many other keri/ketive words; "havtze" in Bereshit comes to mind) is not
>a Hebrew word.

Excellent error. In fact without any cleverness you can simply open
up a Konkordance and see that MIGDOL does occur twice (Ez29:10 and
Ez30:6) Furthermore the word MIGDAL (With a Kamatz vs a cholam) occurs
about 2 dozen times.

In other words I reassert what I said originally---problems of
spelling only emerge if one does not check the facts.

>And despite Dr. Hendel's assertion, there are about 5
>thousand keri/ketiv variants in Tanach, NOT EVEN COUNTING "adonai" for
>"yhvh" and "yerushalayim" for "yerushlaim" (the latter of which only
>appears, I believe 4 times with the final "yod").

Another excellent error! Does Ben Katz really believe that
substituting adonai for the tetragrammaton(for reasons of respect)
is NOT a reasonable explanation.

To put it another way, Ben Katz has looked at 5000 spellings and
has made a determination that since HE can't explain SOME of them
THEREFORE NONE of them have any reason! Surely this is incorrect.

I would respectfully submit that we should start the discussion by
agreeing on WHICH cases (like adonai-tetragrammaton) have reasonable
explanations and which don't

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA
Dept of Math; Towson Univ
Moderator Rashi is SImple
http://www.RashiYomi.Com/calendar.htm  CHECK OUT THE NEW RASHIYOMI calendar


From: Yehonoson Rubin <rubin20@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:13:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Halachically Pregnant

> From: Joshua Hosseinof <hosseino@...>

> All that being said - I don't see how the number of prohibited days
> grows during the first 3 months of pregnancy when the menstrual period
> does not occur.
> [Snip]
> (I would also point out that not all authorities agree that sleeping
> in the same bed is forbidden during the veset - the only prohibition
> of the veset that everyone agrees on is actual intercourse itself.)

I think there is a misunderstanding here, After the first period passes,
there is no obligation to start reckoning "if I would have had a period
it would be on the 30th (or 31st), so I will now reckon as if it did
occur". Also just which posek allows sleeping in the same bed during
vest? To the best of my knowledge it is universal, source being either a
Gemra or Medresh.


From: Alexis Rosoff <alexis1@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 15:48:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Halachicha & Pregnancy (Vol. 33, #68)

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:19:56 CDT, Catherine S. Perel wrote:

|> It is not the case that menstruation ceases during pregnancy.  There
|> have been documented cases of pregnancy where menstruation (not
|> "spotting") continues throughout pregnancy.

How is this medically possible? I was taught in college biology that
menstruation is the decay expulsion of the uterine lining following the
lack of fertilisation of the ovum (that's grammatically awkward, but the
best I can do). Logically, it seems to me that you can't menstruate
during pregnancy, because of the developing embryo/fetus... or am I

 Alexis Rosoff ---=--- http://alexis.dusk.org.uk ---=--- Long Island, NY


From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:10:31
Subject: Re: Kashrut of chewing gum

>From: Joshua Hosseinof <hosseino@...>
>Does anyone know what are the actual non-kosher ingredients in the major
>brands of chewing gum (Wrigleys, Dentyne, Chiclets, Bubble Yum, Trident)
>...  It stands to reason that at least one of the major gum brands
>would be kosher certified today if there were not some majorly different
>ingredient between kosher and non-kosher chewing gum.

I don't know if this helps, but here are the ingredients from Wrigley's
Doublemint (sugarfree), sold in Israel, and manufactured in France and
certified kosher by the Israeli Rabbinate (I looked up E 422 and E320 at
http://www.fst.rdg.ac.uk/foodlaw/additive.htm): sorbitol, gum base,
stabilizer E 422 (glycerol), manitol, flavoring, aspartame, emulsifiers,
lecithin, acesulfame K, antioxidant E 320 (butylated hydroxyanisole

Some of these ingredients can be kashrut problems, but kosher varieties
are available (at least according to the Israeli Rabbinate, your milage
may vary).  If the product in the US has the same ingredients, it seems
to me that it could be made to be kosher, if the manufacturer wanted to
do so.


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:46:41 EST
Subject: Re: Kashrut Question on hot water system

<<  I'm considering installing a hot water system that would create a new
 zone for the purpose of heating the water.  Water from the boiler would
 pass inside a copper pipe and heat the water in the hot water tank.  The
 water that does the heating would never become part of the water
 delivered by the plumbing.  The water in the tank is never directly
 exposed to the fire in the boiler.

 Is the hot water tank a kli rishon or a kli sheni?  >>

Congrats on strengthening your observerence.

Clearly the response is CYLOR (Consult your local Orthodox Rabbi) -- or
maybe your CYLORP (plumber) -- I'm curious re: the application -- hot
water for tea / coffee -- or hot water for showers?

Kol Tov


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:01:13 EST
Subject: Re: A Mesorah of Kashruth - Chalav Yisroel & Glatt Kosher

<< Carl Singer writes:
 > With Glatt Kosher -- there no longer seems to be a reliable / available
 > / convenient supply chain for kosher (but not Glatt) meat -- the metziah
 > has changed, to where Glatt Kosher is essentially synonymous with
 > "reliable" kosher, I personnally know of not even a single organization
 > that supplies (non-Glatt) kosher meat that anyone in the Orthodox
 > community uses (correct me if I'm wrong.)  

 Here in Highland Park (north of Chicago) in close proximity there is
 Best's Kosher/Sinai 48 meat that many frum jews have no problem
 eating. The meat is under the supervision of two prominent Chicago
 rabbis, Rabbi M. Small and Rabbi H. Kaufman and even the Chabad Rabbi
 recognizes that the meat can be considered okay - in a sermon he
 discussed how "many of you will eat from him, some won't." The real
 problem that some people I have talked to have with Best's Kosher/Sinai
 48 is that the owner is Sara Lee, and therefore no longer a jewish
 ownership. That is why there has been problem in trying to obtain
 Chicago Rabbinical Council (CRC) supervision, but there are some lines
 that are Glatt and under the supervision of Rabbi Moshe Soloveichik.
 -Harris Cohen >>

Interesting -- I previously made one caveat (excluding Israel), perhaps
I need to make a second, excluding "local" hasgachas -- the "travel
problem" -- that is the need to wash the meat periodically from the time
that is is schected until the time it is soaked and salted -- seems I'm
told is still an issue.  Again, it seems the issue isn't so much "glatt"
(that is the status of the lungs) but this "travel" issue -- I'm told
most (all?) glatt schect houses, now soak and salt prior to shipment --
can someone with more indepth knowledge in this area comment?

Kol Tov


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:05:39 EST
Subject: Seeking cheap Hebrew word processor

I am seeking to purchase as LEGAL copy of Hebrew word processor - used
or back edition is acceptable -- please contact me directly.

Thank you,
Carl Singer


From: Barry S Bank <bsbank@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 23:21:30 -0600
Subject: Re:  Towels and tsitsit

What is the status of a scarf vis-a-vis tsitsit?  It *is* 4-cornered and
*is* worn as an item of clothing.

--B. Bank


From: Anthony L. (Tony) Zak <anthonylzak@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 18:23:02 -0500
Subject: Weight of Klei Kodesh

      I'm looking for some data on full-size Sifrei Torah, specifically
the type found in ashkenazi shules.  By 'full-size' I mean the size
normally used for Kriat HaTorah in shule not the small ones sometimes
used away from the main shule. 1) How much do the etzei chaim plus klaf
weigh?  2) How much do Torah mantles weigh?

Please identify the type of average as to whether it's a mean or median.
If you have data on, say, 25th to 75th percentile that would also be
useful, too.

/s/ Anthony L. (Tony) Zak
(212) 866-8616
900 W. End Ave #4A
New York, NY 10025-3525


End of Volume 33 Issue 74